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There we go.

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Welcome, everybody.

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I'm Shayne Leslie Figueroa, and I'm here
today with professor Penny Van Esterik.

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Today is April 28th, 2025.

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I'm in my home office in Brooklyn,
New York, and Professor

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Penny is in their home office
in Guelph, Ontario.

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I'm going to go ahead and read our opening
as part of this project.

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The Association for the Study of Food
and Society was founded

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in 1985
to promote the interdisciplinary

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study of food and society.
As part of its 40th anniversary,

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we wanted to chronicle the history of ASFS
as an organization

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and reflect on its role in the broader
field of food studies.

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As part of this effort,

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we are conducting a series of video
interviews with esteemed individuals

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like yourself, like Professor
Penny here, to gather insights

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about ASFS's past, present, and future.

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So welcome, Professor Penny, and let's
go ahead and get started.

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Can you just start us off
telling us a little bit about yourself,

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where you're from, where you did
your studies, and about your research?

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Oh. Thank you.

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I was born in Toronto in Canada,

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and I wanted to be an anthropologist
from a very early age.

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So I studied, anthropology
at University of Toronto

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and then at University of Illinois,
where I got my

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I got my PhD.

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And then I started teaching at University

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of Notre Dame, and I joined Cornell,

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International Nutrition
as a research associate.

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So, that was that was very exciting for
for food work, I can tell you.

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And then finally,
I got, my position at York.

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So, I returned to Canada and,

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I taught there,
and I've just retired a few years ago.

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Amazing.

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And what were the roughly
the years of this?

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When were you at Cornell
and then moved to York?

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Just right.

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I came to York in 1984.

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Okay, amazing.

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That's a pretty distinguished career you have there. 
No.

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Yeah.

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Oh, and you asked if you did ask about my
my research area.

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I've done
my field work is mainly in Southeast Asia.

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Thailand and Lao PDR,

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People's Democratic Republic of Laos
and at a few other spots.

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How did you become interested as a scholar
in that particular part of the world?

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And I'm guessing something
about their food culture

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through an anthropological lens

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there.

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Honestly,
I became interested in Southeast Asia

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as, sort of an anti-Vietnam
War protester.

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So I took courses in Southeast
Asia to know more about it.

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And, my most influential experience

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is, between graduating with a BA

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and then going on to
Illinois for my PhD.

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I was, a Cuso volunteer in Thailand

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for two years, 67 to 69.

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So, that's like the
the Canadian Peace Corps,

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although we started a couple of years
before your Peace Corps.

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So I, that experience

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in Thailand for the two years
and then traveling from there around

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Southeast Asia is what committed me
to that part of the world.

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It's really it sounds amazing.

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And what a, you know,
engaging and brave way to like,

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you know, put yourself out there
as a young person and a young scholar.

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That's amazing.

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Clearly. 
On top, on top of that.

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I got married the week before we left.

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So my husband, who's also an

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anthropologist, was with me,
so it was quite a honeymoon.

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Wow. Yeah.

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Well, it was the 60s.

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Yeah.

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So, to think a little bit more about,
like, our

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our broader discipline here of food
studies, what does food studies

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mean to you as an, you know,
anthropologist and food studies

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scholar?

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As I say, I'm an anthropologist first,

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before I became involved in food studies.

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So to be perfectly honest, to me,

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food and eating and feeding

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is all about

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a way
to better understand the human condition.

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So, I've never been interested in food

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per se, but always about food and eating.

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As a way to get at, other things

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about cultures and societies
and families and households.

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Still such a, such an important
part of the bigger picture there, right?

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And connected to that

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in, you know, along with Carole Counihan
you edited one of the first widely

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used anthologies of food study
scholarship, Food and Culture.

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Which was first, first published in 1997.

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And then you also edited

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the second edition,
I believe, in 2008, about ten years later.

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Can you tell us a little bit
about how that project came to be?

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I taught my

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first food and culture
course at Notre Dame

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in, I think, this 1978,

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and I couldn't find a book
because I wanted, you know,

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I didn't want a community nutrition book,

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and I didn't want a food as symbol book.

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I wanted to cover the whole field.

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So, I had difficulty.

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I can't remember how I solved it.

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Then, but by the time
I came to York in 1984, I was also

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developing, the Food and Culture,
which I would teach every year.

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And, we still didn't have a book
that was suitable.

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There were books that were strictly
biological anthropology.

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There were books
that were community nutrition.

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But, when I was preparing for this,
I actually found, a document

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that I had written and, and, and I think it was,

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1982 with a

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community nutritionist
at University of Toronto.

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She was teaching community nutrition
and was trying to introduce anthropology.

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And, 
I was trying to be a little more sensitive

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to, formal dietetics and nutrition.

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So, we actually put together a rough
draft of a book which didn't go anywhere.

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But when it didn't go anywhere,
I got together with Carole, and,

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we began the process of, of, 
putting our ideas together.

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And I think the reason
it was so successful over many editions

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is that, we were

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both teaching food and culture
courses, and,

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we made great

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use of our students
and our teaching experience.

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So we, we made a real point of,

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comparing, our teaching experiences.

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So, I was in an extremely diverse,
large urban area.

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She was in a smaller university,
a smaller town.

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So, we had different kinds of reactions.

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I had, I remember
I had a course of about 50 students

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at York, and I had, 37 first languages.

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Wow, wow.
Yeah.

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So we had, I think I think because

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we relied

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heavily on,

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seeing
how our students reacted to the material.

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I think that probably contributed
to its success.

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And I would think, too, that,
I mean, having a class of students

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who have 37 different
first languages, right?

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That also contributes to,
I think one of the great strengths of that

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anthology is the robustness and diversity

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of those different, you know, perspectives
around food and culture.

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You know,

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the diversity was so obvious to me,
but it was also very painful.

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And that is,

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I had students

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that 17 or 18, but also adult students

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and, they were all experts.

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You know,
you couldn't talk about Vietnamese food

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when the front row was filled
with Vietnamese Canadians.

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You couldn't talk about kosher food
when it happened in one class.

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The kosher regulator expert

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for the whole city of Toronto
was sitting in my class. 

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Wow.
So, I had that experience of, not knowing

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the expertise on food
that was sitting in front of me.

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Now, you don't want to say the 
wrong thing in front of them.

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Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

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You know, but,
you know, put you in the corner for that.

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Yeah.

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Wow, yeah, just it's such an incredible,

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you know,
that you learn from your students

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as you are shaping the text that they
will learn from, too. Yes.

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It's really great.

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It's kind of like that embodied

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practice that I think we all strive
for at a certain point.

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Which brings us to like one of,
you know, a follow up question here,

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thinking about food studies as a whole.

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You know, there's different components of,
you know, many different ways

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to approach food studies.

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And you mentioned that you, primarily
consider yourself an anthropologist.

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So, you know, what do you think
food studies take seriously?

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What seems to be foregrounded in your
in your community of scholars here?

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And what does it maybe not yet
take seriously?

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Like what?

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I guess just in conversations or whatnot.

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What did you kind of see, you know,
foregrounded maybe more than other topics?

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I think we're very strong
on the political economy of

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food. And,

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exotic local experiences.

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And I think perhaps

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we could be

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a little deeper into,

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some of the less pleasant aspects of food.

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The idea of disgust and shame

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and disordered eating and hunger,

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things like that,
that need to be processed

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both from a household level
and a societal level.

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And for me, I'm just looking here,

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the,

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a lot of my work has centered around,

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sorry, my advocacy work has centered around
maternal and child health.

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Because of my experience in Thailand,

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I became very aware of,

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approaches to infant feeding

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and how Bangkok was just

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buried in Nestlé ads for formula.

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And I had a baby there.

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So, I was just constantly being told to

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that I would be starving the baby
if I breastfed and all this kind of stuff.

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I was so exposed to the, improper,

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promotional practices

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that that became,
a side advocacy issue for me.

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And for a while,
I didn't bring it into the food studies.

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I did after I got tenure,

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but it it's built over my career.

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The idea that,

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sometimes I feel food studies

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is, is stuck

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as if,

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it's male adults that we're talking about.

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And I think we, we could develop

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a much more,

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well, I guess we could call it
a developmental approach.

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Thinking about how the first foods,

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and past meals,

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build up to, shape,

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present eating and perhaps future eating.

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So, I think it would be good
to be developing historic,

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historical and developmental approaches
into food studies.

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So that we don't just take it
from the perspective of, say,

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an adult male or an adult female
at this present moment in time.

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It's a great.
I haven't, I haven't, I haven't worked it out.

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I haven't called that one yet,
but it's kind of it's on my plate.

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It kind of feels like a little bit
of a connection

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or a through line to what you mentioned.

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Your first impulse in

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how do you, you know, combine
anthropology and nutrition?

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You know, in a way that is acknowledging
both sides of this very,

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you know, complicated
spectrum of engagement around food.

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You know, in real life
and in academia, right?

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Yeah.

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And and I guess another thing
that is a bit weak, perhaps, is

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I think in the future
we need to acknowledge more

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of the biocultural aspects
of food and eating.

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So, we we swing on a pendulum back
and forth between

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the more biological nutritional
and the more cultural symbolic.

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And I think we're swinging,
we're swinging away

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from the biologic
physiological diet orientation.

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At a point when

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we really need to reintegrate that

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into our, into our thinking
because it's it's it's

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such a biochemical, sorry,

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biocultural hybrid, you know? So,

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that might be a future direction.

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I think that'd be

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that would be wonderful.

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And it's always such a challenge to
when you are thinking about food studies

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as a, as a more broader field,
kind of like, you know,

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how do you cover everything
and how do you acknowledge all,

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all perspectives and knowing that, yeah,
those that can focus more on the

250
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,280
I guess, like now there's a lot of debate
and discussion around

251
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,280
and like protein and proteinism
and all of that.

252
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,480
Yeah. Right.

253
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,480
And then that's
also a mark of socioeconomic,

254
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,240
you know, status and different cultures
and communities.

255
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,800
And yeah,
and that's where the students have been

256
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,880
rather kind of disturbing sometimes

257
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,160
because, they'll come to class and say,

258
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,600
I took this class
because I want to know what to eat.

259
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,040
You know, and that's not that's

260
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,880
not our role and it's not what food
studies is all about.

261
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:02,560
Yeah.

262
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,560
And that kind of speaks to maybe
that also speaks to just as food studies

263
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,440
as you know growing in robust in

264
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,440
has so many different opportunities
to think about food.

265
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,960
Are we also seeing academia having fewer
opportunities in other regards,

266
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:22,480
such as nutrition and dietetics department
or the old home economics departments?

267
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:22,920
No longer.

268
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:23,840
Yeah, right.

269
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,200
Yeah.
So, it's kind of as things are evolving.

270
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,320
It's a really great,
you know, thoughtful note there on

271
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,320
what is the role of food studies
going forward.

272
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,600
Which kind of brings that like,
do you think we should have a mission

273
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,000
or could there be, a conclave to decide
what is our

274
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,080
our future of food studies
at some point or

275
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,160
I think we we just want to see those.

276
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,840
Honestly, I don't think so.

277
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,200
Honestly,
I think there has to be multiple visions.

278
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,480
And, what I like about ASFS

279
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,480
is it's always made room
for multiple visions.

280
00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,760
So, the fact that it didn't have a narrow
mission meant that,

281
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,160
you could see things that at first glance

282
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,800
appeared to be off the wall,
but then you go to that session

283
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,400
and you start to change the way
you think about something.

284
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,560
And, I,

285
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:20,080
I think the idea of, the single mission

286
00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:24,040
or single vision would not be,

287
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,040
would not be good for ASFS.

288
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,760
It's that welcoming all aspects,
whether they're,

289
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,560
you know,
performative or digitalized and visual.

290
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,440
I mean, that's
what makes it really exciting to me.

291
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:39,920
It's the Big Ten, right?

292
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,840
Yeah, I, I have to admit, as somebody
who is

293
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,040
my strengths do lie in the humanities

294
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,960
and I trained as a historian.

295
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:53,200
And, you know, I'm always so excited
and impressed and engaged

296
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,840
when one of my colleagues

297
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,600
gets up there and does an amazing job
of sharing their research on,

298
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:04,320
you know, the food systems or a more
and more hard science focused approach.

299
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,440
And I'm like,
and this is all food studies, right?

300
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,720
This is great.

301
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:13,040
And like for now,
I'm not trained in biochemistry

302
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,200
or anything, but I'm pretty fascinated
about the microbiome

303
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,920
and, and,
I know how critical it is for the work

304
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,200
I do on breastfeeding or infant feeding,

305
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,320
but it's, I, I suspect

306
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,960
it's going to have a place in,

307
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,960
many, many approaches to food.

308
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:42,440
Whether you really understand
how it operates,

309
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:48,600
you just have to know that there's a way
that you can translate that science

310
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,320
into something that you can understand
and make use of it.

311
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,680
Absolutely.

312
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,000
Going back,
you know, to thinking about ASFS,

313
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,560
when did you first hear about ASFS

314
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,720
Association for the Study of
Food and Society?

315
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,680
I, I think it was the, it was the mid 80s.

316
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,080
And I just come to York and,

317
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,800
I think I heard it sort of percolating

318
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,480
when I was at International Nutrition
at Cornell.

319
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,840
But my, my real contact

320
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,240
was through the society for the Anthropology
of Food and Nutrition.

321
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,560
So, it was the

322
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:38,440
the meetings in the late 70s
when the anthropology of food

323
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,200
and nutrition
became established as a society.

324
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,760
That's when I became aware

325
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,760
of the other association

326
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,960
and were able to,
I imagine, you know,

327
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,600
from Notre Dame to Cornell to York.

328
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,840
You know, you always have in these, 
academic appointments,

329
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,560
you have a very,
you know, specific department

330
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,760
you're part of
and then a large academic community.

331
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:09,160
But being able to kind of go past
just the built environment or classrooms

332
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,600
of your actual school
to find more scholars

333
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,360
like yourself, in SAFN or ASFS
must have been

334
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:20,840
a really kind of exciting thing
when thinking about your research.

335
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,040
It was the importance of it was

336
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,040
they were always fun, you know.
Talk to me about the fun stuff.

337
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:28,800
Yeah. 
And.

338
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,800
Well, no, I just it was the, the,

339
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,800
the one meeting that
I kind of looked forward to.

340
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,080
I remember quite exciting meetings.

341
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,000
The first ones I attended
were the early 2000 and,

342
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,480
the ones at the Culinary Institute,

343
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,520
were just a hoot because,

344
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,760
you know, I'm used to either
having no interesting breaks

345
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:59,400
or else, water and crackers
and these guys, you know,

346
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,080
but as soon as the people were
sitting there waiting for the breaks

347
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,320
because we got all these wonderful things

348
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,320
to eat and, and and lovely,

349
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,680
iced teas and fruit beverages
and things like this.

350
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,200
So that plus, we always managed to get,

351
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:25,120
some shared meals in there, and that was
that was really fun.

352
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,880
And the other thing is, there were even

353
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,640
no matter where the meeting was,
there were usually, field trips.

354
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,800
That would be food focused, but

355
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,400
really interesting.

356
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,080
So, that's what made it fun for me.

357
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,000
And also you just have-
Did you organize-

358
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,080
Go ahead.

359
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,400
No, I said that made it different

360
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,400
from the the big anthropology meetings
where you'd you'd poke around trying

361
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,120
to find something relevant to food,
you know.

362
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,960
And then sometimes you would pick it
There was a title of a panel.

363
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:01,640
Oh, that probably has to do with food.

364
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,640
And then you get there and it absolutely
does not have to do with food.

365
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,960
Or else there's two panels on food.

366
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,160
And there at the same time, same time.

367
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:11,720
Yeah.

368
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,560
Did you ever actively were like, help plan

369
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,920
any of the ASFS conferences
or SAFN even?

370
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,040
No, I was quite involved
in, some of the panel crap.

371
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:27,760
Oh. But, but never
I never took any kind of a role.

372
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,240
I did, I did, did

373
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,680
I think we had a focus once on refugees,

374
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,320
you know, and I would do the Lao focus
on, say, Lao refugees.

375
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,360
We had sessions on methods and,

376
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,240
you know, I would talk about,
sometimes I would talk about

377
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,640
advocacy work, which is not necessarily

378
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,600
a part of ASFS, but for me,
I got involved with the Nestlé boycott.

379
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,800
I was one of the founders, and I'd learned

380
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,800
so much about,

381
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,760
being an activist in an academic setting

382
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:16,240
and how you keep those boundaries
and how you not get

383
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,360
into trouble or get it,

384
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:22,360
or how to get into trouble.
How to get into good trouble.

385
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,400
Yeah, that's about it. Good trouble.

386
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,520
So, those those were interesting.

387
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,520
I was, I think there was a

388
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,920
panel on, Heritage Foods

389
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,120
at one
time, so I was involved in that. So,

390
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,200
I always found even though my interests

391
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,440
were very diverse,
I usually found a place to fit them in.

392
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,520
And if I didn't,
I could take a bit of a leading role, but

393
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,520
never in the organizing
the whole conference.

394
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,000
Sounds like you definitely
had a wonderful, like, contribution

395
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,000
and impact at these different events
over the years, too.

396
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,920
Vis-à-vis, you know,
bring in ideas of advocacy,

397
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,120
and the Heritage Foods for sure.

398
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,720
Well, of course,

399
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,120
I was with like minded people.

400
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:15,640
Yeah. It's not to say that 
It wasn't me.

401
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,800
It was, you know, the interaction
with all the other people there.

402
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,280
Were there any particular,

403
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,400
this is a little bit of an odd question,
but were there any particular,

404
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,880
going back to the idea of the the,

405
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,000
you know, the atmosphere
of these events coming up?

406
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,120
They really are unique in the academic
circles, right?

407
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,280
You know, you know, people are having,

408
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,000
you know, genuine connection sharing,
you know, amazing research

409
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,600
and there's amazing food.

410
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,760
Were there
any particular, dishes or breakouts

411
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,800
or like meals
that you remember from any of the ASFS events?

412
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,160
I mean, I'll, I'll share one, while you just 
Okay.

413
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,160
Because I don't remember.

414
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,720
I just remember eating. 
Exactly.

415
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,880
I remember, you know, I,
I also work for a large university

416
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:07,480
for NYU, and I work for I schedule events
as part of, our, my department.

417
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,200
But I do remember that
always going to like,

418
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,920
you know, in the larger university teams
hosted, going to University of Montana

419
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,160
in Missoula, 
and what the beautiful location.

420
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,320
That was just breathtaking.

421
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,120
And I still, like,
remember some of the panels

422
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:28,400
I went to, but that we went out
and that one of the snack breaks was very

423
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,000
they were very big on local ag

424
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,000
and agriculture and bringing in that
one of the snacks that was out

425
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,760
there were fresh turnips
and butter with salt,

426
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,320
and half of the audience was like,
what is this?

427
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,640
I don't know,
this isn't the usual snack I'm used to.

428
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,280
And the other half were like, oh my God,
this is amazing and I love it, right?

429
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,800
So, that but know how,
how could you eat it?

430
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,840
I mean, I pick up the radish,
you put a little bit of butter on it

431
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,120
and you chomp down.

432
00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:00,280
I was, I was thinking of mashed turnip.

433
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:01,640
Turnip that was mashed. 
Oh, yeah.

434
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:02,920
No, these were fresh.

435
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,560
Almost dug up
earlier that morning. Kind of

436
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:07,840
The only,

437
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,480
for some reason, the meal I remember

438
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,760
was, it wasn't a meal, per se.

439
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,360
I guess it was in New York, but,

440
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,440
we had a line up of food trucks. Yes.

441
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:21,720
And I just.

442
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,320
I had an awful time.

443
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,960
I lined up at every food truck,
and then I'd get there and say,

444
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,040
well, no, I better check the next one
before I make a decision.

445
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,960
I had an awful time there,
but it was so interesting,

446
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,320
particularly, coming from Toronto, where

447
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,000
there were real,
incredible diversity of foods,

448
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,760
but they were all in little mom
and pop stores,

449
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,920
and there were, regulations
that were restricting the food trucks.

450
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:58,760
And the street food was sort of restricted
to crappy hot dogs.

451
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,440
So, I got such a kick out of that.

452
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,960
Now, it's getting a little looser.

453
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,640
But, yeah, that was one of the meetings.

454
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,360
That was the first time I've,
I've really seen a whole lineup of,

455
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,080
you know, 6 or 8 food trucks,
all with different specialties.

456
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,640
That was when, the New School
and NYU co-hosted it.

457
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,160
I was on the organizing committee
for that.

458
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:22,880
All right.

459
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,040
I remember those discussions about,
you know, part of it was, you know,

460
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,640
what do we do for for food when, you know,
this will not surprise anyone?

461
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,560
Schools
make you rent space from them for events,

462
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,640
even when you're a department.

463
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,200
So, we were trying to work within a budget,

464
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,560
and I don't remember
who had the idea for food trucks,

465
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,440
but we were very excited about it
one of our graduate students at that point,

466
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,560
worked with the street vendor project,
I believe.

467
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,560
Oh, right.

468
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,680
And of course, street vending
is extremely important in Thailand.

469
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,120
So, I was used to that.

470
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:02,760
And, and writing about it
and learning what foods are,

471
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,160
you know, street vending foods
and what foods are in restaurants.

472
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:13,160
But yet I couldn't
see it in my own home community.

473
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,920
So it was that's why it was particularly
interesting in, you know, in New York.

474
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:19,720
Yeah.

475
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,160
New York, that was a
that was a great conference.

476
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,520
So kind of thinking through,
we have a few questions around

477
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,280
ASFS as a 21st century. Now, again

478
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,600
I know that you are emerita.

479
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,400
I know you are 
retired now. Congratulations.

480
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,840
You can focus your time on doing that
good trouble.

481
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,320
I just want to know 1 or 2 questions
to think through.

482
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,040
I mean, again, just your opinion
or ideas about this.

483
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,440
You know, food studies can be argued
that, you know,

484
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,720
we kind of have an unusual place
in academia as a whole, unlike perhaps

485
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,080
philosophy or mathematics or,
you know, other traditional disciplines.

486
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,480
There's been a corollary correlation
between popular interest,

487
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,280
you know, your friends and neighbors
having a growing interest in food

488
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,840
and going to food trucks or knowing how,
you know, foods are made

489
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,200
and processed in a way that maybe
they wouldn't have 2 or 3 generations ago.

490
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,920
Do you think that helps support like
the growth of food studies,

491
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,520
or is that make it a little bit
more complicated in terms of trying

492
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,080
to establish a sense of academic,

493
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,080
or discipline like expertise?

494
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:32,720
If everybody can be quoted

495
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,120
in a newspaper article,
what does that do for us as academics?

496
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,440
I think it's difficulty
because everyone's an expert.

497
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:48,640
Sometimes, if I can usually get away
with saying I'm an anthropologist

498
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,080
and the person who will say,
what did you dig up recently?

499
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,760
But, but if you say food studies,
everybody's an expert.

500
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,600
Yeah.

501
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,040
And they say, well, I know about food,
so you don't need to study it.

502
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:03,760
It's not,

503
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,320
it's as if.

504
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,800
Some people think that it's not something

505
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840
with a strong theoretical base

506
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,480
or that it's, it's not a serious topic.

507
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,680
And I feel that's
a bit of a bit of a constraint.

508
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,600
And for me, I'm at,
I'm adjunct at University of

509
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,480
or I was adjunct at University of Guelph,
which is an agricultural school and,

510
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,000
very focused on agriculture

511
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,000
and food technology and one department

512
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,040
and dietetics in another department,

513
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,240
very little food anthropology.

514
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,080
And I went to the food institute there
and say, well, you know, I've got time.

515
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,440
Here's my expertise.

516
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,440
I've got all these books
I'd like to donate.

517
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,000
And, the response was, yeah, well,
we don't need that stuff.

518
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,280
We do.

519
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,880
We do, you know, food as nutrients, food

520
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,640
as agricultural products
that need to be, moved,

521
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,720
more effectively
or produced more effectively.

522
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,800
And I was told that some of the stuff I do

523
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,960
on, say, food and religion was fluff

524
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,640
and also that, in projects,

525
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,560
we would be, as anthropologists

526
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,120
studying food, we would be naysayers

527
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,000
because I tended to say things like,

528
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,360
when you hear, research on dietetics

529
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,400
and the person is

530
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,960
from a perspective of nutrition education,

531
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:54,920
and I

532
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,080
sometimes couldn't help myself,
but I'd say, you know, people don't

533
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,680
eat on the basis of relationship

534
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,680
between zinc and or calcium or something.

535
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,400
They eat on the basis of what
their grandmother fed them. And,

536
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,520
you know,
and even their religious beliefs.

537
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,880
And so that would be,

538
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,680
a way that we would be perceived
by some to be naysayers.

539
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:25,360
Yeah.

540
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,560
The same thing if you talk about, 
the technology that improves

541
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,840
food production, if you're not,
if you're coming in there and saying,

542
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,920
you know, the the issue isn't production,
it's distribution.

543
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:39,640
Yeah.

544
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,160
Then you're putting down the guy
that is trying to,

545
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,960
you know, create the new fertilizer,
the new pesticide, the new whatever.

546
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,120
So I've, I still have
the boxes of books in my basement.

547
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,480
Oh, I know there's a
I believe one of your colleagues

548
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,480
there is doing the feeding
8 billion project.

549
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,680
Has a bunch of, like, digital
videos around it that I, I would have

550
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,440
thought would be more appreciative
of that kind of, you know, insight

551
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,160
not think of it as naysaying,
but perhaps I spoke out of turn.

552
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,520
So perhaps some of that
might be edited out because no problem.

553
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,480
Just, it was, you know,

554
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,840
reaction to I would like that. That is.

555
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,600
But it's a legitimate concern.

556
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,440
You know,
there's a lot of people that do world,

557
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,080
world food.

558
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,440
And, you know, getting world
food is always also local

559
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,440
food that, you know, at the same time.

560
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,680
And I love that.
We are the experts in the local.

561
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:45,440
Yeah.

562
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,760
And it's people, you know, when we get so,
you know, focused on a specific,

563
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,440
you know, thought process or data set or,
you know, make the add

564
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,800
the beta carotene to the rice to help
improve its nutritional components.

565
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:00,840
Right.

566
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,840
It can kind of I think in this is not
this is more of like

567
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,840
a, a friendly critique
where I can put blinders on.

568
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,960
And I think that's on the strengths
of food studies, is that we kind of try

569
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,120
to push back the blinders
a little bit, right.

570
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,160
So not instilling naysayers,
but people are uncomfortable

571
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,160
when that's brought to their attention
sometimes.

572
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,760
I remember,
when I was I learned most of my nutrition

573
00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:27,280
at Cornell under, Michael Latham,
who started the international nutrition

574
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,200
program there, and I was his, assistant
for an infant feeding project.

575
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,240
And, I got to sit in on a lot of those

576
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,760
strongly nutrition based science classes.

577
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,400
But I remember, I think it was a project.

578
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:46,480
I think it was a project

579
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,280
to, address night blindness in Indonesia.

580
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:51,880
I could be wrong.

581
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,920
And, they got and they did actually
had some anthropologists in there

582
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:02,000
because they looked in the kitchen
and figured out what was the product

583
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:08,200
sitting in the kitchen,
which was, in every household,

584
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:13,640
the poorest of the poor, 
middle class, super wealthy with servants.

585
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,240
And the product turned out to be MSG.

586
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,480
And, some people would say, how,

587
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,880
how dare you take a product like that?

588
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,160
People were critiquing MSG, but it was,

589
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:34,800
if you added vitamin A to it
and if it's going to be used anyway, and

590
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,800
nobody was believing the critiques of it,

591
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,920
it was a part of every single recipe.

592
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,960
Then it was a compromise.

593
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,000
But it was, something that that got

594
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,160
the necessary supplementation into

595
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,920
every household very quickly.
So smart.

596
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,680
And MSG is delicious. I'm going on record.

597
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,920
It makes it makes things
even more delicious.

598
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,080
Come on.
Yes.

599
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:02,880
Wow. That's good.

600
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,640
So they had to kind of like yeah,
that was a great example of like science

601
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,800
and you know, and the cultural and the
cultural cooking, fighting in the kitchens

602
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,840
and the, the food technology

603
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,840
people aren't
always looking in the kitchens.

604
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,920
Yeah, yeah.

605
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,760
Wow. So the thing I want to think
a little bit more about your,

606
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,560
your advocacy work can kind of

607
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,440
frame it within that idea of, you know,
the three pillars, so to speak, of food,

608
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,920
you know, production, distribution
and consumption right those ten.

609
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:35,800
Yeah.

610
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,560
The production and distribution
consumption,

611
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,840
their practices
outside of traditional academic labor.

612
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:42,160
Yeah.

613
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,360
But I feel like food studies,
scholarship has worked to integrate

614
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:51,160
academic research with lived experiences,
you know, above the labor.

615
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,160
So, talk to us a little
if you have a little bit more

616
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,920
to share around some of that advocacy work
you've done, you know, you know, in the,

617
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,960
child nutrition
or maternal health areas,

618
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,680
if that has kind of like it sounds like
that's been, a pretty strong thread

619
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,480
throughout your career
to kind of like play, as you mentioned,

620
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,480
places and spaces where that kind
of advocacy can, can move forward.

621
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,760
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit more about that.

622
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,480
I can tell you about the infant
feeding research.

623
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,800
I can't remember what you asked
about the production.

624
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,040
Distribution. Yeah.

625
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,880
I just find that there's different ways
to think of our relationship

626
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,000
Oh the three pillars.

627
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,760
Yeah.

628
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:34,280
Okay.

629
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,560
I just,
when I was anticipating that question,

630
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,760
I was just going to say, the

631
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,240
the, the connection to the nonacademic
that I got from ASFS

632
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:52,760
force was more around
the Culinary Institute

633
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,800
and the training of chefs.

634
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,120
And,

635
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,120
the, the potential for,

636
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,560
research having policy relevance

637
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,040
and the only policy relevant work

638
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,840
that I think I've contributed
is in the area of infant feeding.

639
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:14,440
Okay.

640
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,520
And,

641
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,160
I don't think that all food studies
needs to be activist,

642
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,720
and I don't think all of it
needs to be policy relevant.

643
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,840
But, 
if enough people are taking those dual

644
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,560
roles, you know, it makes it visible

645
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,760
for people to see how their research

646
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,960
could actually affect policy.

647
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,720
So there were,
there was also a lot of work

648
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:49,720
on, say, breastfeeding and HIV.

649
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,040
And that was immediately policy relevant.

650
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,160
I've been working on, the idea of,

651
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,400
green infant feeding,
which is pointing out that,

652
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:10,440
the climate change people
and agricultural sustainability people,

653
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:13,680
usually and

654
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,840
food security people
do not even consider infant feeding.

655
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,520
But of course, breastfeeding
is the most ecologically

656
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,680
likely green way to feed an infant.

657
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,520
There's no waste product,
you know, there's no gases.

658
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,320
You don't use extra water.

659
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,880
There's just all sorts of reasons.

660
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,320
But people that are dealing with climate
change, people that are dealing with,

661
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,440
the Green New Deal and all that,
they just

662
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,400
quite often ignore that,
that starting with First Foods.

663
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,960
And now I find that even the food security
people behave a bit

664
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,600
from the adult male perspective.

665
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,280
In other words,
thinking about the, amount of cereals

666
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,720
produced, amount of vegetables
produced, or something.

667
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:07,960
So, you've got those in the,
you know, the, the composites

668
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,760
of, food produced in an area

669
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,160
rather than thinking about either,

670
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,520
a distributions in families
distribute into family food distribution

671
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:25,360
or starting with, infancy, you know, 
so I think those are,

672
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,960
those are sort of like shifts
in framework.

673
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:35,240
And, so a lot of my interest
has been in trying to remind

674
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,840
food security people
that it kind of starts at, pregnancy.

675
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,440
You know,
what should pregnant women be eating? And

676
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:46,000
the fact that

677
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,760
that flavors the amniotic fluid
and sets the baby up

678
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,080
to, like, those household flavors

679
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,080
that they got tasted before and would

680
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,200
encounter again in human milk,
which makes it more likely

681
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,280
that they're going to like that
taste as opposed to,

682
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,560
a pregnant woman
that's only exposed to industrial foods.

683
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:11,200
Yeah.

684
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,200
And then, baby,

685
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,560
tastes all those fake foods.

686
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,560
Yeah. And then is given infant formula.

687
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,280
Well, they develop that

688
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,560
industrial palate
where the fake food, the fake vanilla and,

689
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,640
the the the sugars with, chemical

690
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:36,640
flavors are what makes them drool
and make them want to eat.

691
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,480
So I think that's why I'm, I find that

692
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,000
the anthropologists are not always
welcomed

693
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,400
by policymakers, but, 
Yeah.

694
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,480
You know, in those sense, we are

695
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,600
often the naysayers for

696
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:56,200
saying something

697
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,840
against industrial food,
which is, you know,

698
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,040
the name of the game.

699
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,960
I know I was just going to say,
we're at a point in human

700
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,720
civilization
that we need more, a lot more naysayers

701
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:13,520
perhaps there than not.
Well, we don't even know the implications of

702
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,600
We've had maybe three generations now of,

703
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,000
little humans born

704
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,160
with no maternal milk ever.

705
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,200
So, what does that do to immune systems?

706
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,680
What does that do to the growth of,

707
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,240
potentials for childhood
cancer or autism or anything?

708
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,840
We just don't know
if we're not asking the questions. I asked

709
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:42,080
I used to I did a class on infant
feeding in the food and culture course.

710
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,360
The guys hated it.

711
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,000
The the women were

712
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,280
would cross their arms and say, well,
I never had enough milk,

713
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,280
so I couldn't do it, but I insisted
I would do one class on this.

714
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,640
I didn't do the whole session,
but I couldn't.

715
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,240
I had to have it in.

716
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:02,200
And one thing I learned was that,

717
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,320
it in a in a class of 50,
there might be maybe

718
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,000
half a dozen that had any idea
how they were fed as infants.

719
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,880
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

720
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,560
Wow, I do, I, I teach a class currently
at the New School on kids and food.

721
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,920
And one of the things that I that's

722
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,560
a great observation point that you made,
there's like that lack of knowledge.

723
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,000
One of the things that I consistently do
is on our discussion boards or in class.

724
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,160
I'm always like,
ask your caregivers, you know, parents,

725
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,120
you know, aunts, uncles, grandparents
ask their caregivers about,

726
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,600
you know, what they remember,
not only about the students,

727
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,960
your own early childhood
and food experience,

728
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,200
if they were breastfed, if they weren't,
but also their own memories.

729
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:46,480
Right.

730
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,800
Because that's like like you said, we
don't know enough and we forget so quick.

731
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,600
Yeah, absolutely.

732
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,120
We don't learn from the past.

733
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,240
And then in order to think for the future,
as much as perhaps we could.

734
00:43:58,240 --> 00:43:59,560
Absolutely.

735
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,320
Oh, so, you know,

736
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,520
food studies and ASFS and, you know,
pretty growing and as you mentioned,

737
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,880
thinking about those food trucks,
that incredible, diversity

738
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,680
in the idea of giving, you know,
intellectual curiosity and respect

739
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,480
to different kinds of foods and
cuisines and thus cultures.

740
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,640
I'm thinking
too, about your your work in Thailand.

741
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:28,320
Have you seen a growing community
of scholars in Thailand working on food

742
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:33,160
or is it still or is it more,
you know, Western perspective

743
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,520
looking out at these other interesting,
tasty cultures and communities?

744
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,080
I haven't seen,

745
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,680
say much food studies,

746
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,160
say from an anthropological
or a historical perspective,

747
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,960
but, a big focus on,

748
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,240
food and identity
and links to nationalism.

749
00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:00,640
So a few years ago,
the Thai government had,

750
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,040
a program called Thailand
Kitchen of the World.

751
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,840
And, they were trying

752
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,400
to create, authenticity.

753
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,320
Quote, in Thai restaurants overseas

754
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,400
because of course,
we get Thai Express and little,

755
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,840
you know, maybe two named noodle dishes
that appear on every menu.

756
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,880
But, Thai cuisine is incredibly diverse,
regional differences.

757
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:37,880
And, there was a real marketing attempt
to make sure that, if you're calling it

758
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,920
Thai, it better have some

759
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,920
Thai ingredients in it, and it better be

760
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,560
something that, meets a certain standard.

761
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:52,200
So, I'd say that's the direction
they're going with a growing,

762
00:45:52,440 --> 00:46:02,080
perhaps a growing interest in,
some history of, but for instance, Thai

763
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:07,200
restaurants are very new in, in Thailand,

764
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,520
it was more Chinese and Sino Thai.

765
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,520
And then you'd get, for the real

766
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,040
Thai food, you'd have it as street
food or in homes.

767
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,600
So it's, it's reasonably recent,

768
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,920
from the 50s and 60s that you'd get the,

769
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,520
identifiably Thai restaurants.

770
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,760
So, it isn't as if there's,

771
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,960
historical tradition there.

772
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,920
The recipes for Thai,

773
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,840
for very special Thai dishes were,

774
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,240
they were passed down orally
so they weren't written.

775
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,560
And, when they were written down,
they were often written in these little

776
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,000
cremation books.

777
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,880
They were booklets
that would be given out at a cremation,

778
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:05,080
and they would contain the, special
recipes of the person that was deceased.

779
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,760
But those are both in Thai and

780
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,720
pretty exotic documents
that you'd find in temples and things.

781
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,400
That's amazing.
So, think it's, it's,

782
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:18,960
you know,

783
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,960
those are the kinds of things that I think

784
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,120
are really,

785
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,600
driving food studies.

786
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,360
Yeah. In Southeast Asia

787
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,280
and if there was a bias,
it would be towards food history,

788
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,240
you know, tracing ingredients
and particular recipes.

789
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:43,960
That's my impression anyway,

790
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:49,400
because let's face it, ASFS
is focused on the American scene

791
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:55,960
and, that's a limitation
and a specialty as well.

792
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,480
And that's a great way to put it too.
Right?

793
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,400
It's both, you know, there's strength
in having a focus.

794
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,360
And there's also intentional
or not an intentional focus or not.

795
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,920
And it's you know, it's limiting.

796
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,360
It's kind of you have to acknowledge that
this is a specific community in place.

797
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,720
And I look, so interesting
to thinking about those notions

798
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:19,720
that the Thai government is invested,

799
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,840
in the notions and ideas of authenticity.

800
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:23,080
Right.

801
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,760
Which brings up, yes, you know,
the whole gnarly situation or gnarly

802
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:33,640
wicked problem, I guess, is something
that economists say of food tourism.

803
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,040
Yeah.

804
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,160
And culinary culinary
tourism is very big in Thailand.

805
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,880
Yeah. I, I did not grow up in Thailand.

806
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,840
I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina,
which if I said that,

807
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,760
you know, 30 years ago when I was starting
my undergraduate career,

808
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,040
everybody was always like, oh,
like like Charlotte, like North Carolina.

809
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,040
I'm like, no, no, nobody knew Charleston.

810
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,560
And now Charleston is a very desirable,

811
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,640
you know, culinary destination
for a variety of reasons.

812
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,640
But it's yeah, that last
I would imagine in Thailand,

813
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,720
this is a very, you know, proactive
move of the government

814
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,800
and people who have some kind of stake
in this, you know, economic and cultural

815
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,600
to safeguard, protect, promote,

816
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,200
you know, it's a very intertwined
kind of question there.

817
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,000
Right. And it is commercial.

818
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:26,120
It is intense.

819
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,120
And to, be able to export.

820
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,600
Yeah. Specific Thai products.

821
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:33,160
Yeah.

822
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,200
And it's that kind of like those questions
of like terroir and things like that.

823
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,600
And, you know, Western Europe, it's
what again, what is gained, what is lost.

824
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,800
Yeah. You this is authentic.

825
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,360
But then you're you're
limiting opportunities for that

826
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,320
a fusion that adaptation.

827
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,360
And yeah

828
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,360
fascinating.

829
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,760
I was going to say
is there any new scholars

830
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,280
that are doing work, you know,

831
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,280
through ASFS or whatnot
that you're kind of interested in?

832
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,360
That're doing work in this space?

833
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,880
No, I just, I,
I forget names very quickly.

834
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,040
That is fine. Me too.

835
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:16,440
Yeah.

836
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,520
Well, what was the last book you read or
what was it about

837
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,080
that was kind of exciting to you?

838
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:22,760
Thinking about the field.

839
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,520
Anna Marie Mol.

840
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,080
Mol. 
Okay.

841
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:32,720
I think it's called Thinking About Eating.

842
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,400
Her work on food to me is just fantastic.

843
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,920
And, I, I hope I have that name.

844
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:41,160
Right.

845
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,160
But but thinking and eating are
part of it.

846
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,080
Eating in Theory. That's it.

847
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,080
I think it's called Eating in Theory.

848
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:54,160
And it is really powerful
because she's, trained in philosophy,

849
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,200
anthropology, medicine,

850
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,600
and, is an exceptional researcher.

851
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:05,200
So the, the very,
very innovative approaches.

852
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,680
But I'm a bit low vision,
so I, I don't make it

853
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,000
through books very well.

854
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:18,720
I'm, you know, a blow up, a,
an article now and then make a big font.

855
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:22,120
But, it's a, I think

856
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,720
going through the the big, heavy,
small font books is beyond that.

857
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,760
That's a challenge
I love, a lot of my students

858
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,400
now, have cued me into audio books.

859
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,560
Yeah, I'm all audio books.

860
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:38,200
Yeah, yeah.

861
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:39,520
And and that there's,

862
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,440
you know, thankfully,
a lot of the good like, you know, library,

863
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,840
you know, academic
and otherwise library services.

864
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,160
If there's a book that doesn't
have an audio version, they're working.

865
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:49,880
It's the one thing I will say,

866
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,760
okay, about all the new technology
they're working to get, they can produce.

867
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,400
Yeah.
You know, limited audiobooks. Right on.

868
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:57,880
Yeah.

869
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,360
I'm reliant on audiobooks
now, and and I don't find many on food.

870
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:04,240
That is a no.

871
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:07,120
So so that brings up all of those
questions that we have here, too.

872
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,320
Do you think that something
that perhaps a project, a way

873
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,760
to promote the scholarship
that ASFS could get in to?

874
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,760
I think it would be incredible because it

875
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:21,000
I know they're considering monographs
and edited this, that and the other thing

876
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,760
and I would say, yes, all of the above,
but if we could add in

877
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,160
some audio material,
I think it would be terrific

878
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,520
because, it's, it's just a different way

879
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,760
to get messages out there.

880
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,040
I agree. And podcasts.

881
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:42,960
Right.

882
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,960
Podcasts have become so

883
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,800
such a wonderful entry point
in a deep dive opportunity too for so many

884
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,040
you know again scholars and broader,
you know people just interested

885
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,320
in different communities
and learning about rights.

886
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,480
I need need your advice on podcasts.

887
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,480
So you have to tell me after
I will happily share some of them. 

888
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:03,640
Okay.

889
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,960
I have kind of a radical collection, but
there are quite a few food ones in there.

890
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:13,160
Yeah, I know the Heritage Farm Network,
just to give a shout out, is, okay,

891
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:14,440
production company

892
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,760
that has a lot of really great,
researchers and storytelling and.

893
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:21,320
Yeah, I'll, I'll email you a list.

894
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,280
I'll do it after.
Yeah, I'll do that after.

895
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,320
So kind of moving on,

896
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,440
getting towards
the end of our, of our discussion here.

897
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:35,440
I wanted to start thinking about
what kind of what we were just talking about

898
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,480
that idea of it's a rural North
American situation going for ASFS.

899
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,840
How do you think we can kind of

900
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,960
push it outward and should we,
I know there's an intent

901
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,960
to kind of know drum
or we do have some international,

902
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,320
you know, researchers and scholars
as part of the network.

903
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:54,640
But do you see that?

904
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,840
Do you see any paths forward for kind of
pushing it to be more international,

905
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,280
or should we just

906
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,760
like, focus in on the strengths
of being in North American organization?

907
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:05,440
Well, I think

908
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,880
there's definitely a place for it
as a North American organization.

909
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,280
But, the

910
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,760
I think it would be wonderful
to be able to work with sort of sister

911
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,800
organizations
and different national bodies.

912
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:25,160
So there's, now all the Canadian
Association of Food Studies.

913
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,840
I'm not going to ASFS this year.

914
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,160
We're dealing with,
my colleagues will not go.

915
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,640
They've canceled every meeting
in the States until this awful

916
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,680
mess of we're not a real country.

917
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,480
We're supposed to be a 51st state.

918
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,160
On the record, it's bullshit.

919
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,200
It's ridiculous 
And all

920
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,120
a lot of it is focusing around food.

921
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,120
So where, the country is moving

922
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,520
very strongly
to figure out how we can really go local.

923
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,320
And because,
of course, we're a northern country where,

924
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,840
our fruits and vegetables
have been heavily from the state.

925
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:12,960
So there's much,
much work on greenhouses and hydroponics.

926
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:18,560
And how are we going to get through this
with, because nobody seems to be aware of

927
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,000
the huge population differences and scale

928
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,320
and trade in Canada versus the states.

929
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,200
So I've, I used to alternate

930
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:34,880
between Society for the Anthropology
of Food and Nutrition and ASFS.

931
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:37,680
And I've had less

932
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,800
to do with my, my national associations.

933
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,880
And I think that has to change,

934
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,560
but imagine a situation where,

935
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,600
you say every five years

936
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,960
you get together with sister organizations

937
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,280
based in different countries.

938
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,000
I think that could. 
Be amazing.

939
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,560
Yeah. It would,
it would really be amazing.

940
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,480
It would be,

941
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,800
do some, create lots of difficulties.

942
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:16,840
But even if you just had one stream
that was the Canadian Food Studies,

943
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:22,000
which is focusing a lot on northern foods
and First Nations' foods

944
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,720
and, whatever's going on in

945
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,680
Scandinavia and France and the, the work

946
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,160
in, Singapore and Hong Kong, all these

947
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:39,280
could if if it couldn't be a full meeting,
it could just be, sister associations

948
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,080
with a stream to allow the,

949
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:48,240
the integration of the different
frameworks and different approaches.

950
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,240
Well, that would be wonderful
because, I mean, as you said, like,

951
00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:56,360
you know, the politics impact, you know,
all us at the very at every level.

952
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:56,920
Yeah.

953
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,960
And the idea that, you know, I'm
just saying you trust in North American,

954
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:05,160
I'm like, well, we are in North
American organization right now, but,

955
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,320
you know, ASFS if we have to deal
with some, you know, the impact

956
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,840
of politics on who can, who can
and who will be part of the community.

957
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,480
Right? It's yeah. Yeah.

958
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,640
Well, it's North American, but

959
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,120
and the feeling up here
is that it's really American.

960
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:22,600
Yeah.

961
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,840
And of course, that gets all mixed up

962
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,320
with this message about there's no border
and all that sort of thing.

963
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,760
So it's, it's a very difficult time

964
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,440
for, academics in Canada.

965
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:37,960
Right now.

966
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:39,640
I mean, different problems.

967
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,000
I know you're facing it, too, but,
we have a different,

968
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,360
a different kind of a problem.

969
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,080
And our situation would be.

970
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,360
And I can say that would be an incredible,

971
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,080
you know, negative impact on organizations
like ASFS and.

972
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,240
Yeah, if,
you know, we were if we have that,

973
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,320
absence of Canadian scholars, I'd
that would be incredibly like, deeply

974
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:03,440
because in fact,

975
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,880
there's because there's a population
difference, there's fewer people.

976
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,080
So, we have fewer opportunities
to get together.

977
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:10,640
Yeah.

978
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,720
And, that's what I always, you know,

979
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,960
what I always loved about ASFS
and I'm, I'm going to miss it.

980
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:17,920
Yeah.

981
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,200
I'm we'll miss you this year hopefully.

982
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,920
Hopefully next year.

983
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:24,240
Right. Hopefully.

984
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:24,960
And so,

985
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,040
and I will say that

986
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,680
if you're thinking about sourcing
local fruit, it's not season yet, but

987
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,680
it'll the Orleans outside of Quebec City
has the best strawberries in the world.

988
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,800
Ooh. All right. They are delicious.

989
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:42,280
And there's a vendor or a farm farm
site on the island that also makes,

990
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,360
cassis, like, grows cassis
and it makes cassis

991
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:47,520
ice cream.

992
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,960
Oh my. Black currant.
It's like black currant.

993
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,880
And it's swirled with vanilla ice cream.

994
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,440
Yeah, I went, I went on a trip
with my girlfriends last summer,

995
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:02,720
and we went to Quebec City in Montreal
and an unexpectedly unexpectedly.

996
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,360
I love Quebec City so much. Yeah, yeah.

997
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:07,560
Delicious.

998
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:07,880
Yeah.

999
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:13,480
And in fact, that's the upside of, 
Trumpism, because we're discovering,

1000
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,560
and, and trying to bring up to scale

1001
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:23,200
some of the local food products that,
you know, had a very small market.

1002
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:27,880
And maybe now we're trying to break down
provincial barriers

1003
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,200
so that more food moves horizontally.

1004
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,000
We get less dependent on,

1005
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,160
on, American food products

1006
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,320
You have such a wide variety of,
you know, terrain

1007
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:46,200
and agricultural products and, you know,
but it's still not know.

1008
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,960
It's still not the, you know, the Central

1009
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,840
California plantation type temperature.

1010
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:55,520
Yeah.

1011
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,000
That's, you know. Yeah. We,

1012
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,440
yeah, that might be impacted, too,
if we're gonna.

1013
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:07,320
Yeah, deport all of our amazing
agricultural experts and workers. So,

1014
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:09,600
yeah,

1015
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,640
We're not going to end on, on a
on a depressing political note.

1016
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,680
No. Okay.

1017
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,920
What are your hopes for food studies
in the next 40 years?

1018
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:18,360
We've

1019
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:19,400
Oh.

1020
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,560
we've gotten through 40 pretty quick,
and now we're looking at the next 40.

1021
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,040
But what do you where we where
would you like to see?

1022
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:27,720
You know.

1023
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,960
Oh I don't know I feel I'm

1024
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,360
80 and I keep thinking
Amazing.

1025
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,360
You know, I can't even think

1026
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:38,960
of that.

1027
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,800
I can't think that far ahead

1028
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,480
because I get frustrated
because I won't be part of it.

1029
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,640
Well, do you, do you have you
have you said you have children.

1030
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,200
Do you have grandchildren?

1031
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:54,000
No, I have, one daughter, 
no grandchildren.

1032
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:59,560
And so I, I'm, I'm having difficulty
thinking about future.

1033
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:03,360
I, I'm thinking more about,

1034
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,200
how to integrate,

1035
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,280
you know, over time.

1036
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,600
Sorry, not over time.

1037
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:17,920
More like contemporary integration.

1038
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,840
Because I honestly feel that,

1039
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,320
AI is going to change so much

1040
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,440
about the way things are,

1041
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,440
communicated and stored

1042
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,920
and I have a feeling that the,

1043
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,200
the model of ASFS

1044
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,320
may not

1045
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:42,120
be and others.

1046
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:43,960
It may be transformed.

1047
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:46,960
It may not exist in that form,

1048
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:51,680
beyond, say, ten years,
because I think with,

1049
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,680
it's becoming more and more difficult

1050
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:58,240
to travel, the expense of things.

1051
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,720
Our problems will be to keep

1052
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,960
food studies,

1053
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,240
at a human scale rather than having AI,

1054
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,880
shape so much about our future,

1055
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,960
our future of eating.

1056
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:17,720
But I do think that,

1057
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:23,440
the, I don't know what the next 40 years
will bring.

1058
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,680
It's hard to say. Right? It's also 
I just.

1059
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,560
I don't know,
as it sounds like you also like

1060
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,000
your years in the classroom
are really deeply impactful for you.

1061
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:37,680
And I know that there as somebody
who also loves the the practice and the,

1062
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:43,880
you know, doing the teaching, 
I yeah, I've noticed a shift in the last,

1063
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,920
you know, however many years
we'll just say five.

1064
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,320
Part of it is, you know, that not every

1065
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,280
not every student is going to connect

1066
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,320
with the material and some just want
to get the grading it done.

1067
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,160
And they have other
things are passionate about.

1068
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,480
But overall, you know, my experience

1069
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,320
of, you know, AI entering the classroom
has been an overall negative one.

1070
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,960
And like nobody wants to fail anymore.

1071
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:08,680
Yeah, right.

1072
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:10,920
They just think they can plug in
and get an answer.

1073
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,600
And as you you brought up
you know that's problematic.

1074
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,880
And both like critical thinking level
but also on you know

1075
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,560
if we assume we can just plug something in
and it will harvest

1076
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,640
that lettuce in the right manner for us
and it won't, it'll miss stuff. 

1077
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:26,680
It'll bruise stuff.

1078
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:32,080
But, you know, and I think for,
thinking about ASFS

1079
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:35,680
as an organization

1080
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,520
and SAFN anthropology of food.

1081
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:45,760
As you know, these are organizations of 30
and 40 and 50 years.

1082
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:50,880
I it would be interesting

1083
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:56,600
and rewarding if elders could communicate

1084
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,920
something with to the
to the younger generation.

1085
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:05,920
Things are changing so fast I feel really
useless, you know, like I can't.

1086
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,040
I'm not influencing students anymore.

1087
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:12,720
Just the odd,
the odd, really odd student, but. So,

1088
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,200
you know,

1089
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:18,520
it's it's more.

1090
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:21,600
I'm in the phase of life of reflection
and looking back,

1091
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,680
and I think

1092
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,400
with the digital technology,

1093
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,640
there's not a feeling that

1094
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,240
the knowledge I accumulated in the 60s

1095
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,600
has any meaning now,

1096
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,200
you know, so that it would be nice
if we could figure out a way.

1097
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,800
And perhaps your oral history
is part of this,

1098
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:53,160
to keep that knowledge, in the system.

1099
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,880
But I don't know how,
but I think you hit a good note there.

1100
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,080
It's doing the oral history projects.

1101
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:00,400
It's sharing.

1102
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,200
Right. It's. I mean, I would love to know.

1103
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:05,800
I just been thinking in the back
of my mind about, you know, your,

1104
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,960
your box of materials that you wanted
to share with your colleagues.

1105
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,200
And I'm like,
I would love to get my hands on that.

1106
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:12,400
Right.

1107
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,800
Well, I'd love to give them to you too,
because I,

1108
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,000
they were all collected before digital.

1109
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,760
And, the Food Institute

1110
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,760
here says they only collect
digital material.

1111
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:27,160
Professor Penny, we're going to email.

1112
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:29,480
We'll figure out what to do about that.

1113
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:31,120
But that's 

1114
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:35,080
this idea that, you know, same
as not every one of the students that we

1115
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:39,280
teach is going to go on to a robust
and rewarding career in academia.

1116
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,280
Not every, you know, not every

1117
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:45,560
you know, person in academia
is going to have the same path forward.

1118
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,880
But there are those of us
who I completely agree with you.

1119
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:52,760
I really value the idea of like, you know,
you have to build out and understand,

1120
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,920
you know, the past in order to deal
with the present and plan for the future.

1121
01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:58,640
You know?

1122
01:05:58,640 --> 01:05:59,120
Yeah.

1123
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,920
And I think I yeah,
the thought of the things that you've seen

1124
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:06,400
and working in Thailand and,

1125
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,640
you know, all these different places
like that's just incredible.

1126
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:11,920
The world has completely changed
since then.

1127
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,240
And I want to I want to pick your brain
about all of those change.

1128
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,600
Oh, well, you're welcome any time.

1129
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,480
Incredibly valuable to ASFS.

1130
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:22,720
And to our food studies
field that we have.

1131
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:26,280
Nothing really to kind of like
wrap it up a little bit here.

1132
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:30,280
That is the purpose of of this wonderful
oral history project.

1133
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:31,960
Right. We want to make a record,

1134
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:34,120
we want to start the

1135
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,120
conversations and get it going there.

1136
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:41,760
So, I'm just going to say on behalf of ASFS 40,

1137
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,800
the committee
and ASFS as a whole. I just want to

1138
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:47,880
thank you for taking the time
to speak with me today.

1139
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:48,960
Well, thank you.

1140
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:53,240
And I very much look forward to continuing
our conversation on and off the record.