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This is Lucy Long and KC Hysmith.

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Today is Friday, April 11th, 2025,

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and we are conducting this interview
virtually.

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From our, I'm from my home office.

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And, Lucy
are you in your home office as well?

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Yes. Yes. Yes, definitely.

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You can see photos of my children
in the back.

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I love it.

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I've got I've got some children
mementos back here too.

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So the Association for the Study of Food

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and Society was founded in 1985
to promote the interdisciplinary

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study of food and society
as part of its 40th anniversary.

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We wanted to chronicle the history of ASFS
as an organization

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and reflect on its role in the broader
field of food studies.

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As part of this effort.

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We are conducting a series of video
interviews with esteemed individuals

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like yourself to gather insights about ASFS's

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past, present, and future.

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And I'm so excited to be here talking
with you about all of those things.

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So let's let's get started.

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Let's dive right in.

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So to start us off,
can you tell us a bit about yourself?

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Okay.

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So I

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I was born in North Carolina in Charlotte.

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And I always

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I always like to say
I was raised bicultural

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because my mother's family
was from the Piedmont.

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The flatlands an old established family.

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You know way

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back they actually had a plantation
and went back to Governor

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William Bradford up in Plymouth, you know.

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So, I had DAR all that
on one side of the family.

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And then my father was from the mountains
of northwestern North Carolina.

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So, I had hillbilly and country club

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the same state.

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You know.
Now, they're like 2.5 hours apart.

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You know.
You know, but very different cultures.

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As a kid, I

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was very aware of that
in terms of the food,

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because when I was with my mother's
family, we always had grits.

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When I was with my father's family,
we had hominy.

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And, and and neither

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family had barbecue.

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I do remember my grandfather
and Charlotte would go across the tracks

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and get barbecue, but it wasn't considered

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anything proper for us to eat.

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So so I was, I was.

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Very aware of
I mean, you know, that was 50s and 60s.

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So, things have obviously changed.

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I was very aware of

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identity being tied to food

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from from a very early age.

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And then when, when

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I was

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this would have been

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third and fourth grade.

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We moved to Northern Virginia.

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And my, my father

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my father was very poor Appalachia,
you know,

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actually he grew up in an orphanage
and he became a banker, an economist.

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So he, we moved to Northern
Virginia, he was working at a bank up there.

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And all of a sudden, that's

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when people
I realized I was a Southerner.

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Because people would tell me.

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I had a very thick accent.

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It was a mixture of Charlotte
and Mountain.

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So because we spent a lot of time in

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Ashe County.

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And also Buncombe over near Asheville.

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So, I had a mixture of both.

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And people made fun of me all the time.

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It's okay.

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I had a bunch of brothers,
so I just beat them up.

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You know, and so

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it didn't really bother me, but

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but it

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made me made me very aware
that, oh, okay, I'm considered different.

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And the difference again
would show up in food

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because people would come over, friends
of mine would come over to the house.

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Oh. You know, they have a snack,
they'd have potato chips or something.

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My father was no, there was a pot of beans
and greens on the stove,

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and I thought everybody kept
a pot of beans on their stove.

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You know, soup beans.

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Yeah.

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You know.

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So, and,

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And obviously, my friends thought
that was very weird.

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And, and then my

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my uncles raised hogs back in North
Carolina, raised called,

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and they had a ham curing business.

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So, we always had giant hams
hanging up in our attic.

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So, when it was time for bacon or meat,

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my father would pick up the machete
and go up there and slice some off.

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So, that that really terrified
my friends.

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So, you know, you know.

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So I didn't think very much about food,
though.

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I mean, I love to eat.

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You know, I

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was used to eating a lot because I had
all these I had two older brothers, one

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younger brother we ended up having a lot of foster
brothers who are in and out.

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I didn't

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want to cook though
because it was only women in the

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kitchen and

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they would gossip.

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It wasn't interesting.

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And I like to be outside, running around.

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And to hear

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my brothers were allowed to be outside
I'm supposed to stay in the kitchen.

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So I didn't want to have anything
to do with cooking at all,

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but I love to eat.

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So, you know.

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So, then fourth and third and fourth grade,
I discovered I was a Southerner,

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and then fifth grade
we moved to South Korea

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because my father started working
for the State Department as an economist for

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USAID

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Which is not a waste of money.

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No, it is not.

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I have to add that.

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So he he

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always like to say that he helped design
the banking system of South Korea.

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Oh, wow.

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Which is one of the strongest economies
in the world today.

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Yeah.

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But, anyway.

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In in Korea,
I discovered that I was an American,

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and people assume that I ate

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hot dogs and hamburgers and steak.

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Well,
we never ate any of that kind of stuff.

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That just wasn't

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it wasn't part of our family's food
repertoire.

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And my mother was very adventurous,

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and she'd love trying new foods.

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So, we ate lots of Korean

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food and

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and at that time, this was 60s and 70s.

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The expectation was

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Americans

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could contribute to the local community,

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to the local economy
by hiring as many people as possible.

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So, we had a cook, we had a washing lady,
we had someone who came in to clean.

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We had someone who came in to
look after the

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I ended up having,
having two younger sisters.

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After, after a while.

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You know, so

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we had Korean cooks who cook Korean food
all the time, and we loved it.

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Yeah.

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You know. So.

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And and then I discovered
most other Americans.

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We were living on the army base.

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It was the military State Department

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compound

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in Seoul.

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Most of my friends there

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thought Korean food was really yucky. So,

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and then we also knew
a lot of the missionary families

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that Presbyterian
missionary families tended to be

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they were emphasizing education.

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A lot of them worked at universities
and hospitals.

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And and so.

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So, we got to know a lot of them.

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And they were
they had also grown up with Korean food.

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So, they were not as anti-Korean.

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So occasionally what

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We like to do things 
I ended up going to,

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going to a boarding school,

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missionary run boarding school in Korea
for my last two years of high school.

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Cool.

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Yeah.

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That's,

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You know,
so most of those were missionary kids

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who had grown up with Korean, Korean food.

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And so we occasionally do, like, gross out

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visiting Americans or visiting Koreans.

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We would make,

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kimchi cheese sandwiches

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because Koreans would tell us

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that cheese was it smelled horrible

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and, you know,
and that Americans had milk breath.

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You know, they ate this,
this rotted mucous from a cow.

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And the Americans were saying
to the Koreans,

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you eat this rotten cabbage,
and it's buried in the ground.

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Yeah. And so you made it perfect.

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You made a perfect little, like,
unity sandwich of

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the two.

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And it's hilarious
because now grilled cheese

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sandwiches are all the rage
as a street food in Korea.

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Right?

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Yeah. And various

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various, like, cabbage, cheese, grilled
cheese, cabbage, kimchi things.

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Yeah.

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That's that's what I know of Korean food
is, is that cheese is okay.

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I know, and and

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it has to be the slices of American.

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Yeah.

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And a cheese
that I would never eat here in America.

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Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, it was so funny.

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That was, it was GI cheese that,

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you know, because that's what,
that's what government the PX and commissary.

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Yeah. So,

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well, you know, so
all of that made me very aware of food

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and so but

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for much of my

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much of my life,
I was very involved in music and dance.

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And I loved.

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The traditional music that I made hear
in the mountains in North Carolina.

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And I was very involved
in that and dancing and

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and started learning
how to play the fiddle

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or learning how to play the violin,

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so I could play the fiddle.

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So there's something about music
that always drew me. So,

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I took violin
lessons and piano lessons and,

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and when I was in Korea,
I studied Korean musical instruments.

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So, Lucy,
where did you do your formal studies?

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Okay, so I,

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I actually did my, my formal,

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college started in Vietnam

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in the fall of 1974.

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I graduated from high school in Korea.

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In the spring of

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of 1974.

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Actually, the last two years
of high school, my mother was living

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in Taiwan
while my father was working in Vietnam.

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So, I was going back
and forth. Taiwan, Korea.

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So the year

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after high school,
I wanted to stay overseas.

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And so I stayed in Vietnam with my father

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and started university,

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actually it was the University of Maryland
extension courses.

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Oh, cool. So.

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So, I had a creative writing class
and an anthropology class,

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and the anthropology
class was just physical anthropology.

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And it met

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in the marine barracks in Saigon.

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So. And,
so here I am in, in this,

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this country

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in which all this stuff is going
on, you know, politically and culturally,

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the anthropology class had nothing at all
to do with any of that.

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And even the creative writing class,

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it was it didn't have anything to do with
with what we were seeing around us.

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And so I found it

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I found that was kind of frustrating.

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I'd always been very interested 
in music though.

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So I also was taking classes

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at the Vietnamese Conservatory.

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And, I was studying.

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Well, when I was in Korea, I studied
Korean instruments, and there's this long

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zither kind of thing that they have
in Korea, Japan, China and Vietnam.

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And I studied
a little bit of that in Korea.

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So, I started studying that in Vietnam also.

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And I was fascinated.

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Here's something that the instrument
was so similar,

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but different cultures, different music.

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And so

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I was I was focusing on music.

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I was thinking music would be my career.

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I had no idea what I would do with it.

259
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:00,400
In the meantime, I love to eat.

260
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,360
I love going exploring in the markets.

261
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,400
Since I pretty much grown up over there,
I was used to eating

262
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,040
street food and and, all sorts of things.

263
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,760
So, and

264
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,600
then also, my mother was living
in Thailand to be closer to my father.

265
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,760
So, she had my, my

266
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,240
four of my siblings were there with her.

267
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,240
And so I go back and forth.

268
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,000
At Christmas, we went back to Bangkok

269
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,080
for Christmas with the family.

270
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,080
They wouldn't
let me back in Vietnam after that.

271
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,720
I found out later it was

272
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,480
the CIA
was trying to get my father out of there

273
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:44,520
because he had uncovered

274
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,920
some corruption going on
among South Vietnamese officials, and

275
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,480
Oh, my.

276
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,080
And well. You know. Yeah. So.

277
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:53,880
But I was

278
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,800
told that it probably wasn't safe,

279
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,840
even though everyone thought,
oh, the war is coming to an end

280
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,720
because there was a truce,
and there was starting

281
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,880
to be a lot of traveling and all. So,

282
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:09,360
but the upshot of that,
though, was I was in Bangkok.

283
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:12,400
Thailand has

284
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,400
some of the best food in the entire world.

285
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,360
And and

286
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,400
part of what I would do is recreation
was just go down to the street markets

287
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:23,960
and eat.

288
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,400
And, you know, I didn't I

289
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,080
wasn't thinking of this as any kind of
career thing or educational thing.

290
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,080
It was just like,
I just this was fascinating stuff.

291
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,480
And I did a lot of backpacking
around, and,

292
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,880
backpacked Indonesia

293
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,960
to Burma and, and met up with other kids
who had grown up

294
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,120
over, you know, in that part of the world.

295
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,120
And we were all used to just kind of,

296
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,800
well, we had diplomatic passports
so we could kind of go anywhere,

297
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,480
you know, so we would go into areas
that most foreigners were not allowed.

298
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:01,240
And so.

299
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,680
So after, after that,

300
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:09,000
backpacking
all Indonesia, India, Nepal, Burma, and all.

301
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,360
It was Burma then.

302
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,200
So, I came back to the U.S.

303
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,800
for college thinking,

304
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,920
I'll study music.

305
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,000
I don't know, maybe music education.

306
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,600
I don't know all the

307
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:24,840
you know.

308
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,200
So, I started that, said, no,
this does not work. And

309
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,640
so I dropped out of college.

310
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,640
My parents had come back to the US

311
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:36,240
by then.

312
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,280
They were living in Northern Virginia.

313
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,560
So, I was staying with them. And

314
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,280
living in their basement,

315
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,480
you know, trying to figure out
what do I do with my life. And,

316
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,840
I have to tell this anecdote

317
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,840
because it's like,
always listen to your mother.

318
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,200
And so she she

319
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,240
wanted to go to a little folk festival.

320
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,240
The Glen Echo Folk Festival in
Maryland is very famous.

321
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,280
And I

322
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,720
didn't want to go, you know, all these
little all my brothers and sisters.

323
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,920
But I went with her.

324
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,600
And there was a
woman playing Japanese music.

325
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,600
And so I was fascinated.

326
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,000
She was playing the same long instrument.

327
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,200
So afterwards

328
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,200
and I was very, very shy back then.

329
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,040
So, afterwards I went over

330
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,360
and talked to her.

331
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,760
She had actually introduced herself
saying if anyone wants to study

332
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,680
Japanese music with me, you know,
so I went over and introduced myself.

333
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,360
So, she gave me a scholarship to study
with her right on the spot.

334
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:40,680
Oh, wow.

335
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,600
Yeah, yeah. And and then also.

336
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,640
While I was talking to her,
there was a man standing there.

337
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,880
And after I finished talking to her,

338
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,880
he said, is your name really Lucy Long?

339
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,000
I said yes.

340
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,040
He said, well, then, do you know this?

341
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,240
And he started singing the song
Take Your Time Miss Lucy.

342
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:01,160
Take your time Miss Lucy Long.

343
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,000
So which turns out it was the most popular
sheet music

344
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,920
sold in 1838,
and it turned into a minstrel show song.

345
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:16,320
So, the man who, who

346
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,560
was talking to me, he was Joe Hickerson
from the Library of Congress.

347
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,560
The Archive of Folk Song. 
No big deal.

348
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,520
I know. He said with a name
like that

349
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,280
you have to come and work for me.

350
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,360
So, he

351
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:31,640
he set up an internship

352
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,640
So I ended up going down
to the Library of Congress,

353
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,800
discovering folklore as a field.

354
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,520
So and musicology.

355
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,520
So, I thought that's the direction
I was going in.

356
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,640
I was I was still fascinated by food,
but just as something to eat.

357
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,040
You know, and.

358
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,040
and then,

359
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,920
I finished college.

360
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,400
And and then and worked for a year.

361
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:02,360
And you went

362
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,360
to University of Maryland, correct?

363
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,680
Yes. That that

364
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,720
well, I went to Davidson
College for my undergraduate.

365
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,120
Yes. So

366
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,760
so after and after Davidson College,

367
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,000
I worked at the Smithsonian Institution
for about six months,

368
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,080
working at the
at the annual Folklife Festival.

369
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,760
That they do, which included food.

370
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,000
Thought oh, that's really interesting.

371
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,880
You know, this is kind of all the stuff
I always knew about food. And

372
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,880
then from there I worked at NEH

373
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,120
and I was just doing like
temporary secretarial things.

374
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:44,160
But it was great because I got to meet
all these people and become familiar with things.

375
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,400
And so

376
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,720
And then and then I, I went to Memphis

377
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,120
and spent about five months working at the
Center for Southern Folklore.

378
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,240
And that's
where I first started doing food stuff.

379
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,080
So because I was fascinated,
here I was in Memphis

380
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,600
and there were
all these Chinese restaurants.

381
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,560
So how did these get here?

382
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:06,360
Yeah, and some

383
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,680
of them were Chinese and 

384
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:10,960
soul food.

385
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,000
So, yeah.

386
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,920
That's a great combination.

387
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,400
I know, I know.

388
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,400
You know, so so the center said, okay,
we'll we'll, we'll pay,

389
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,720
you know, pay you a stipend,
you know, to go to the five restaurants

390
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,240
that were listed in the phone book.

391
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,240
Turned out
there were 37 Chinese restaurants. So

392
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,880
so and I went around interviewed
all these people, and,

393
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,200
you know, the owners and all.

394
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,880
Discovered it was fascinating stuff.

395
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:38,640
You know.

396
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,640
People were talking about identity.

397
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,560
And the kinds of issues
that had always interested me.

398
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,160
So, but I was still on the music
track and,

399
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,800
Yeah. 
So I Left there.

400
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,800
Went back to North Carolina,
Western North Carolina.

401
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,320
And, I had a grant to
do the oral histories around

402
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,840
traditional music,
the dulcimer, basically.

403
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,520
Up in the mountains.

404
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,520
So and then and then I started my,

405
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,960
my master's degree in ethnomusicology

406
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,160
at the University of Maryland. And

407
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,920
I was I was also working
at the Library of Congress

408
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,920
in the Smithsonian on a part time
basis during that.

409
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,440
So, I was kind of frustrated by it
because I felt like.

410
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,200
At that particular time, the field

411
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,160
tended to focus
just on the mechanical aspects

412
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,520
of non-classical Western musics.

413
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:43,800
And that didn't

414
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,520
interest me as much as the social aspects
and the meanings of the music.

415
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,560
So, I started finding folklorist
who were dealing with that.

416
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,960
So, I finished my masters and I
went to the University of Pennsylvania

417
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,840
for a PhD in Folklore and,

418
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,040
you know, still on the on the music,
the folk music track.

419
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,480
However, while I was there,
I took a class with Don Yoder.

420
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,880
And who

421
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:13,680
you know, was

422
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,480
was the one who pretty much brought
the word foodways into folklore scholarship.

423
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:18,760
Yeah.

424
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,560
So and to clarify, he was a professor.

425
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,520
At that moment, right. Okay. Yeah.

426
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,200
Yeah. And and

427
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:25,800
His

428
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,800
the other thing that Don was famous for.

429
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,160
He he was bringing European folk life

430
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,080
methodologies and theories,

431
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,520
you know, to, to the US.

432
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,040
So and he, he's
the one who brought the term folk life

433
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:45,720
also. 
Right.

434
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,280
So so I was taking a class from him

435
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,560
and for our final paper,
our final project,

436
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,320
we're going around the room talking
about what to do. And I said, well

437
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:56,400
you know.

438
00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,320
I can do this stuff on the dulcimer,
or I've been noticing that the

439
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,720
Korean restaurants change their recipes
for kimchi when Americans go in.

440
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,280
And they offer they only offer Americans

441
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,280
the real the weaker kimchi.

442
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,760
And his face just lit

443
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,560
up and

444
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,400
everybody was fascinated with that. 
So like

445
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,800
okay great.

446
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,400
You know. So, I ended up doing

447
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:22,800
doing.

448
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,120
this massive project for

449
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,120
him on on kimchi.

450
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,880
Yeah. And in those public venues.

451
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,200
And how Koreans

452
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,160
were changing

453
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,200
the recipe or the type of kimchi.

454
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,560
So, they'd offer the mul kimchi
or water kimchi.

455
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,040
Instead of the, the cabbage, regular cabbage

456
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,080
kimchi

457
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,760
you know and

458
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,840
and I was looking at how that related
to their sense of identity.

459
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,840
Yeah. And, and.

460
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,400
It was, it was fascinating.

461
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,400
I wrote this massive paper.

462
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,400
And. For him and

463
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,720
you know, was was trying to
to do more work on that.

464
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,400
You know, but

465
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,920
at the same time,
I had to work on my dissertation,

466
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:14,120
which was the impact of tourist
and folk music collectors

467
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,480
on the concept of the dulcimer
as a tradition.

468
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,000
And this one little area
in North Carolina.

469
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,680
And so for that
I was doing a lot of research on tourism.

470
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,040
And like the anthropology of tourism.

471
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,920
And most of that literature saw tourism,
it was always a negative force.

472
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:36,640
A harmful force. 
Yeah.

473
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,320
Bit I kept thinking but you know.

474
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:40,920
When I was in Bangkok

475
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,000
I was a tourist and, and the,

476
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,760
and the street markets, I loved it
and I learned about the cultures that way.

477
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:51,360
So, so I started looking at tourism

478
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,800
from the theoretical perspective,

479
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,440
as something that that actually
could be a window

480
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,560
into other cultures.

481
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,200
So I finished my,

482
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,400
my dissertation
and while I was doing that, I was.

483
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,960
Finding people who couldn't.

484
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,880
Talk about music that in the same way
they could talk about food.

485
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,600
They didn't have the vocabulary
to talk about the chords or the types of rhythyms.

486
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:22,360
But like everybody could talk about food.

487
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,680
So, so I started.

488
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,680
That's when I started
thinking of culinary tourism.

489
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,200
As soon as I finished my dissertation

490
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,360
I started working
more on culinary tourism.

491
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,720
I'd like for us to pivot

492
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,920
just a little bit to,
the topic of food studies.

493
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,000
But before we do,

494
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:42,480
I have one

495
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,560
more question,
I think in this other section, but I,

496
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,560
I just want to point out and I mean this
in the biggest complimentary way ever.

497
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,000
When I asked you
about your formal studies, you told me

498
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,000
all these beautiful stories of backpacking

499
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,040
and making kimchi cheese sandwiches
and all these things

500
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,920
that most people wouldn't
consider formal studies

501
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,120
and which I know
you also have formal studies,

502
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,400
but I, I think it's really beautiful
and speaks

503
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,520
a lot to the things that you've
contributed to the field of food studies

504
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:13,560
is that your first

505
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,280
inclination is to say like, well,
these are also my formal studies.

506
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:18,160
These are all part of it.

507
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,120
And I just
I just think that's really beautiful.

508
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,480
So, I wanted to
before we jump into the kind of bigger

509
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,000
theoretical concept of food studies
and some of the questions we have,

510
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,120
I wanted to ask you
about where you've done.

511
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:34,240
So, you've graduated
with your dissertation.

512
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,360
And then take us down just briefly,
kind of where

513
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:41,360
you've done most of your teaching
and your research kind of,

514
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,000
I don't know, you can pick your favorite.

515
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,680
You've been doing this a while,
so you can pick your favorite time period.

516
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,440
You can you can say it however you'd like.

517
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,640
Okay. So,

518
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,040
I initially was teaching ethnomusicology

519
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,120
and I moved out to Ohio, where
I still am based,

520
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,560
to Bowling Green State University.

521
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,840
Initially it was just because my

522
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,920
my husband, who's also a folklorist,

523
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,320
had gotten a job out here
in the popular culture department.

524
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,520
We thought it was just a one year
position,

525
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,400
that turned tenure track.

526
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,280
And also so I, I moved down here too. And

527
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,040
started having children,

528
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,320
so three children.

529
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,000
So, but in between I was teaching
in the music department

530
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,440
and teaching ethnomusicology.

531
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,960
So and running the music appreciation

532
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,960
program and things like that.

533
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,000
I enjoyed it, but not really,

534
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,160
partly
because the kind of music that I enjoyed,

535
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,000
my colleagues didn't consider it
serious music.

536
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,720
You know, as,

537
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,320
it's old, like old time string
band music is what is what I and

538
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:01,720
I still play, and perform in a play for
dances and all, you know, but

539
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,440
I, I didn't
feel like it was a good fit for me.

540
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,400
When I start talking
about culinary tourism,

541
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,760
that didn't really fit
into the music classes

542
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,960
at all. So.

543
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,720
And then I

544
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,720
I had done a PhD in folklore.

545
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,360
I wanted to be teaching folklore.

546
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:24,360
So, you know, so I was still in music.

547
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:28,720
And, this is back in the day

548
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,440
when you can still have full time
contracts and benefits and everything.

549
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,440
Yeah. You know, with so and and.

550
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,000
So and I actually turned down
tenure track positions

551
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,160
because of three little children.
And. And.

552
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,640
I was also did a lot of work in museums
and really enjoyed public sector stuff.

553
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,760
And, you know, so I was trying to combine
public sector academic.

554
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,840
You know, teaching.

555
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,440
You know, academic writing,
three children.

556
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,720
So and, and playing music and art too. So,

557
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:02,200
I ended up

558
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,600
switching
over to the popular culture department

559
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,600
so that I could focus more on folklore.

560
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,360
And so while I was there,

561
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:15,360
I started, I started getting

562
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:16,400
kind of

563
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,400
more affirmation about the food,

564
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,440
the interest in food. And

565
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,360
I, I didn't realize what no one thought of

566
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,640
of food as a, as food studies per se, but

567
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,520
I was very aware because at the University
of Pennsylvania in the 70s,

568
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,760
there had been a lot of folklorists
who were applying folklore theory

569
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,280
as a performance oriented theories
to, to food.

570
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,800
And I have been introduced to that
when I was

571
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,360
at Penn.

572
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,720
You know,
but I wasn't all that interested.

573
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,840
You know, I was more like ethnicity and
food was, was part and identity and food.

574
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,520
So, in

575
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,520
in 1996

576
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,560
I think it was

577
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,160
I went to my first

578
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,960
ASFS first meeting.

579
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,120
And it had just

580
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,920
I still remember like email had just

581
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,920
emerged as something that was possible.

582
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,880
And a colleague of mine,

583
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,880
Marilyn Motz,
who was in the popular culture program.

584
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,560
So and she was she was chair later on,

585
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,920
which is important because she hired me
to teach food classes.

586
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,120
Through as, as folklore classes.

587
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:41,280
But so she said she had seen something
about a food studies conference.

588
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,800
So she helped me set up an email
and find this on the internet.

589
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,080
So I went to, Saint Louis

590
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,360
to do this conference,

591
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,440
presented on this framework

592
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,440
of culinary tourism
that I was thinking of,

593
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:58,400
and discovered

594
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,440
there were only about six of us
who were coming out of the humanities.

595
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,000
Everyone else was part of the agriculture

596
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,000
and and the social science aspects.

597
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,880
And at that stage of ASFS

598
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,080
where we already combined with our,
our sister organization, AFHVS. Yes.

599
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,360
Yes. Yes.

600
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:17,800
Okay.

601
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,320
So okay.

602
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,240
So and you know,
we were much, much smaller.

603
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,520
So, we were kind of
tagging along with them. And

604
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:26,680
the it tended to

605
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,680
be very different tracks.

606
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,800
Now that, you know,
we didn't really overlap that much.

607
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,760
And you know, so I remember, you know,

608
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,760
Lisa Heldke.

609
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,240
So Jeffrey Sobal, Warren Belasco,

610
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,480
you know. So,

611
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,560
you know, and people

612
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,440
were very they're very encouraging.

613
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,280
They were really interested
in, in the culinary tourism idea.

614
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,040
And so then I ended up presenting on that
at the American

615
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,920
Folklore Society meeting,
even though a lot of people in humanities.

616
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,560
But as soon as you said tourism,
it's like, oh, no, this is something

617
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,840
evil is inherently evil.

618
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:14,920
So and then and

619
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,920
then we did a, a special issue of a

620
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,920
of a folklore journal on culinary tourism.

621
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,440
So, in the meantime,
I was actually still teaching in music,

622
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,640
and still do a lot of stuff on music,

623
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,920
but people were more interested
and or they get more excited about food.

624
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,040
Yeah.

625
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,080
And, and the people when I went to the.

626
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,400
Food studies
meetings, people were encouraging. And

627
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,520
we all were coming from such different
backgrounds.

628
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:44,880
Yeah.

629
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,040
And a lot of us were teaching
in very different kinds of programs.

630
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,320
So, there wasn't the competition
that you would get.

631
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,280
In some fields.

632
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,360
So, so the folk music
was very competitive, ironically.

633
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,000
And, and I didn't feel as welcome there.

634
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,400
I felt like I have to prove myself, you know,
I got to name the b side of.

635
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:06,120
You know, the

636
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,360
flip side of, of that single from 1937.

637
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,120
And. And food studies.

638
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,040
Instead we were all exploring things
from the very beginning

639
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,040
and very encouraging of each other.

640
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,600
And a lot.

641
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,880
Of people in food studies in the 90s,
if they were looking

642
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,880
for theories to apply to food,
they were turning to work.

643
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,880
That folklorist had done.

644
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,000
In in the 70s and 80s.

645
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,120
There was a lot of stuff
being published on food as performance.

646
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,720
And as performance identity,
group boundaries.

647
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,520
Yeah, that type of thing.

648
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:44,040
Well, I think this

649
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,200
leads really well to one of the questions
that we have to, shout

650
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,520
out to Warren Belasco, in this question.

651
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,920
So Warren
once stated that to do food studies

652
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,920
and academic needs to be a generalist,

653
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,520
an anthropologist and a poet,
an economist and a philosopher.

654
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,920
You know, any
combination that you want to put together.

655
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,280
And it sounds like you you're.

656
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,120
I feel like I already know your answer
to this, but, And we'll let you answer it.

657
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,520
You need to be more than a specialist.

658
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,840
You need to not necessarily niche down
like academia tells us to do.

659
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:18,800
So what do you think about this?

660
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,280
How does this apply to your work
and to the field of food studies

661
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,280
more broadly?

662
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,960
I think food is such a

663
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,640
massive topic and it's so integrated
into so many aspects of our lives.

664
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:40,920
That we need every approach
possible to really understand it.

665
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,520
So, I know personally I took a lot of

666
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,520
the a lot of my training

667
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,680
in ethnomusicology.

668
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,440
I've actually applied to food so

669
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,360
that when

670
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,360
When I talk about taste, something that

671
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,560
that develops out of personal experiences

672
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,760
and then there's,
there's just these ineffable kinds of,

673
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,720
of responses
and reactions that people have to food

674
00:34:09,720 --> 00:34:12,840
in the same way that some music grab

675
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,480
people and some don't, you know, and,
and food can be the same way, you know?

676
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,160
So, and folklore as a discipline tends
to focus on the esthetics

677
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,800
of food.

678
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,800
So it's very easy to apply.

679
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,120
But Charles Seeger said that

680
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,120
at one point when you're studying
and talking about food,

681
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,440
you're talking about music.

682
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,600
You can only music about it,

683
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,680
you can't talk about it anymore. And

684
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,600
I feel like that's extremely important
in understanding food.

685
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:49,400
Absolutely.

686
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,480
That's because there's there is there's,

687
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,560
you know, this aspect of food

688
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,600
that sometimes we just cannot explain.

689
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,080
We got we got a food about it.

690
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,640
Yes, exactly. Exactly.

691
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,360
And that doesn't mean
that we have to go to

692
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,000
to culinary arts school
in the same way that in music,

693
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,120
going for classical training to learn how
to play the fiddle really messed me up.

694
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:16,160
Oh, no.

695
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,160
I, I was not able to play

696
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:20,840
the kind of music that I heard.

697
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,400
I couldn't get the magic that I heard.

698
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,920
Using classical techniques.

699
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:26,320
I guess.

700
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,320
Oh, you have to throw out all that stuff
about tone quality and perfect pitch.

701
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:33,680
It's all about rhythm, you know.

702
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,960
So, I started applying that
to different genres

703
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,200
of food
as well as different genres of music. So,

704
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:44,760
I was never all that interested

705
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,760
in like, gourmet food.

706
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,160
Partly because it's expensive.

707
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,080
And and I.

708
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,760
Didn't like dressing up,
going to hoity toity places and, and

709
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,280
and just didn't have the money.

710
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,400
You know, so, you know,
I never developed a taste for wine.

711
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,000
It's too expensive
for me to cultivate this.

712
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,400
So, the idea of different genres of food,
I think, is extremely important.

713
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,200
And and different people.

714
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,080
Because of their backgrounds
and their disciplinary backgrounds,

715
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,000
as well as personal backgrounds, are going
to be focused on different genres.

716
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,560
Yeah, absolutely.

717
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,960
So what do you think that Food Studies
takes seriously?

718
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,960
And what does it not yet take seriously?

719
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,120
You know, when food

720
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,720
studies

721
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:39,280
was was developing

722
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,200
in the 90s
and early 2000, from what I could see,

723
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,920
there was much more attention

724
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,920
being paid to the meanings of food.

725
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,000
And coming at this from,
from a folklorist perspective.

726
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,560
It's not just what foods mean
on a cognitive level.

727
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,400
It's the meaningfulness
they have for individuals, the memories

728
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,480
they evoke, the emotions
that that are attached to them.

729
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,560
People act upon meaningfulness.

730
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,240
And so to really understand
what's going on with food, we have to

731
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,000
get at the

732
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,560
meaningfulness of food
to individuals and to groups.

733
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,600
I think a lot of that has been lost.

734
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,280
Partly because

735
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,880
it's

736
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,280
it's difficult to measure those types

737
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,280
of things, and

738
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,760
it's difficult to be taken seriously

739
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,760
by within academia

740
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,480
unless you can show numbers and graphs.

741
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:45,120
Yeah.

742
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,120
And things that'll get you those grants.

743
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,480
Yes. And the social sciences tend

744
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,200
you tend to get a lot more grants
than the humanities.

745
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:56,760
Yeah.

746
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,680
So, I really feel like the humanities have
been have been overlooked.

747
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,120
And a

748
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,720
I say this very carefully
because we definitely don't

749
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:08,880
have all the answers either.

750
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:15,120
But but I have been seeing at,
at conferences, talks

751
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:19,440
that people are giving that just seem
to miss the humanities aspect completely.

752
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:21,720
Things we had about 20 years ago.

753
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,360
Well, you know, we we all knew those.

754
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,600
You know, so people are kind
of rediscovering the wheel but also.

755
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,760
Yeah.

756
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:29,480
So and

757
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,520
then also missing out on

758
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,440
on really

759
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,440
fully understanding food as a human

760
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,200
activity.

761
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:38,440
Yeah absolutely.

762
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,080
It's not just it's not only economic
or political.

763
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:43,400
You know.

764
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,320
So there's so many intersections.

765
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,080
Yeah.

766
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,480
So, you know,
so kind of along the same lines,

767
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,840
do you think that food studies
as a scholarly endeavor

768
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,920
has or should have a mission and a vision?

769
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,080
And if so, what would that be?

770
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,160
You know, it doesn't have to be pithy,
but especially in light of kind

771
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,480
of all the current things
that are happening in 2025 with,

772
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,920
you know, half the things
that you mentioned you experienced

773
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,400
as a younger person on your way to food
studies, those things are either gone

774
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,040
or not not, you know, not over time.

775
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,320
But like in the past four months,

776
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,680
those things have been taken away
or severely disabled in different ways.

777
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,680
Financially. Departmentally.

778
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,840
You know, facing all of this
going forward, you know, what?

779
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,040
What do you think our our mission
as food studies scholars should be?

780
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,480
I know well, no pressure.

781
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:39,600
That's a big question.

782
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,040
I know, and I'm going to.

783
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,400
Answer that in two ways, too, because. I

784
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,920
I feel I feel terrible

785
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,920
for younger scholars coming along now.

786
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,600
I was able to switch over from teaching

787
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,920
in the music department to teaching
in the Department of Popular Culture,

788
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,920
and I, I purposely chose

789
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,920
a non tenure track route.

790
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,720
But I was included.

791
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:09,160
I was recognized as full faculty.

792
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,400
I was on committees developing programs,

793
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,480
and I did that partly well.

794
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:17,280
I ended up being

795
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,600
in American Culture Studies
and International Studies

796
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,480
and Popular culture, and we were trying
to develop a food studies program.

797
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,080
And then the recession came

798
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,040
everything was cut down, and

799
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:31,720
everything had to

800
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,880
be very practical and very pragmatic.

801
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,240
And so, you know,
so the focus was now on nutrition.

802
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,800
And I actually moved over to it
as a

803
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:44,720
tourism leisure

804
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:46,200
event planning program,

805
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,080
but it was under sports administration.

806
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,400
Which introduced me
to a lot of social science stuff.

807
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,160
You know, and then.

808
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:01,120
And then all of that dissolved again
and so then I was teaching

809
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,000
and, and food and nutrition
and American culture studies.

810
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,880
So, those kinds of opportunities
don't really exist now.

811
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,880
You know, so I, I was able to have

812
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,640
the flexibility to try out
all these different things, be exposed,

813
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,720
to all these different disciplines,
which I think was very, very important.

814
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:21,800
So and so.

815
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,960
That kind of leads back to you
know, food studies having a mission.

816
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:27,600
I think

817
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,800
fundamentally food studies
is about understanding food

818
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:34,160
and all

819
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,160
the dimensions that we can think of

820
00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:40,720
that are related
to that economic, political,

821
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,040
so environmental,
you know, spiritual and cultural.

822
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:47,400
So, I want

823
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:48,840
to use that as the basis.

824
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,480
And then in terms of having broader
missions like, you know, should we then

825
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:59,640
promote, you know,
environmentally conscientious food. So,

826
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,000
yes, but I wouldn't make that
as part of our mission,

827
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,000
because I think it's important
to have that foundation.

828
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,680
And then allow individual

829
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,840
scholars,
to choose the strategies that they feel

830
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,280
will be the most effective for them
in their particular context.

831
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,440
So, yeah

832
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,480
and you know, which
which sounds like a little bit of a,

833
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,600
of hedging, but I feel very strongly

834
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,960
that people need to look at the context
in which they're in.

835
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,360
Yeah. And choose the strategy and so.

836
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:34,480
And so when.

837
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,200
Frequently a mission statement

838
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,760
will include strategy
as well as the fundamental concepts.

839
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:45,040
I think it's important
to separate those two.

840
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:45,800
And I think so.

841
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,120
And I think as you've kind of described
and what I've witnessed, having

842
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:53,440
been a college student
in undergrad during that

843
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,560
2008, 2007 recession,
I had just started college.

844
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,520
My undergrad, I, you know,
so much of us being told to niche down

845
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,960
nuance, nuance, nuance,
and those things are important.

846
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,360
All these specific strategies,
but without some kind of full fledged

847
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,680
support foundation that I didn't find
until I went to

848
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,680
my first ASFS conference
in my master's program.

849
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:18,960
This kind of yeah, it all matters.

850
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,600
Like every single thing,
every single one of us in this room matter

851
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,480
and have different perspectives.

852
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,080
And we all have expertise, of course.

853
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,160
But, together we
we create this really strong foundation.

854
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:34,520
And that is something I, I truly did
not experience in any of my other,

855
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,920
fields or departments in at least

856
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:42,880
not in the same kind of stable,
sustainable way.

857
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,440
And that's pretty, pretty cool.

858
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,120
But I want to talk about specific
ASFS memories.

859
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,040
Any that you might have.

860
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,040
Do you, have any specific,

861
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,000
interactions, events or conferences,

862
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,360
that stand out in your mind,
in your, in your time with ASFS?

863
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,240
Yes. There
there actually was one time when,

864
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:09,800
I'm trying to remember.

865
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,760
When this was it was still,

866
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,000
you know, the
the leadership was very informal.

867
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,760
It was kind of like, well, who has
the time to be president this year?

868
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:21,480
You know.

869
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,880
So, we were all kind of
going back and forth and,

870
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,600
supporting each other.

871
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,600
And, it wasn't competitive at all.

872
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,840
And I remember one time

873
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,400
I was

874
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,000
I was kind of at a crossroads
professionally.

875
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,800
And then also in terms of what departments
I was teaching in.

876
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,520
And I

877
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,120
I was still doing a lot of stuff in music,

878
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,760
but I was definitely moving away
more toward towards food.

879
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,600
So, I had gone to a conference. And

880
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,040
Was an ASFS conference.

881
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,280
Was just kind of trying to,
trying to find my,

882
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,600
my way
and feeling a little bit out of things.

883
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,120
And then at the banquet,

884
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,840
which was it was just in this big hall
and there were maybe

885
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,960
200 people at the most, you know.

886
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,720
So, so I was standing there at the door

887
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,720
looking to see if there was a table
with anyone that I knew.

888
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,480
And several people came over

889
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,160
Alice Julier for one.

890
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:33,840
And she saw me.

891
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,480
So Lucy, come up,
come on over to this table.

892
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,480
And it was kind of all of us,

893
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:40,360
taking

894
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,360
turns being president or vice president.

895
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,800
And taking leadership roles, you know?

896
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,520
So they brought me over to the table, and
I was like, okay, this is where I belong.

897
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,040
This is this is this is mine.

898
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,120
And I'm I'm very, very active.

899
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,840
Also, in the American Folklore Society.

900
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,920
And have a lot of friends,
just like going to a high school reunion.

901
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,720
You know, you know.

902
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:05,880
You know, but but a lot of people.

903
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,440
A lot of folklorist are actually coming
out of lot of English literature.

904
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,160
And it has been said to me.

905
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,320
That,

906
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,360
food is not a subject

907
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,360
in which high theory can be done.

908
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,200
So. Well, Barbara
Kirshenblatt-Gimblet would disagree

909
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,200
with you, but. You know, but.

910
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,600
So and I like to think that some of what
I've done could be considered high theory.

911
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:36,280
You know, you know, you know,
but food

912
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,840
hasn't been used that much to theorize
about what folklore is, you know, so I do

913
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,160
I, I do see their

914
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:43,840
point, you know, but the whole.

915
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,520
Point of that saying that.

916
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,200
That.

917
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:51,600
Foodways, even though I see it as being
an integral part of folklore studies.

918
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,760
And, and

919
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,240
every folklore program includes,
they include food at some

920
00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:58,200
point.

921
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,040
You know in my textbook on on,

922
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:02,560
Food and Folklore, the reader

923
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,320
is usually used,
you know,

924
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,880
but it's still kind of pushed aside
a little bit as anybody can do food.

925
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:12,240
Yeah.

926
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:14,400
And that actually leads me into
some of our

927
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,560
the next questions, which is kind of under
the banner of talking about ASFS

928
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,760
as a 21st century scholarly project.

929
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,320
And one of these questions
that we're wanting to ask folks is, although

930
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,720
the food
studies has gained significant traction

931
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,240
with within departments
at numerous institutions.

932
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:34,000
As we've already discussed,
it is far less often found success

933
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,000
on its own
standalone department or program.

934
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:39,600
We both know
that there are very few of these programs.

935
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,840
I was very grateful to attend
be in gastronomy, but I know that's

936
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,080
still very, you know, seen as different

937
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,080
and sometimes weird to some people.

938
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:50,760
So so why do you think that is?

939
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,240
What are some of these?

940
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:54,320
Tell us how to fix it, Lucy. How do we?

941
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,960
How do we fix this?

942
00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:58,920
Well, first

943
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,040
everybody needs to take my classes.

944
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:02,080
Okay, there we go.

945
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,120
Step one is to go to step one. All right.

946
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:06,480
Right.

947
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:07,200
You know.

948
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,200
So because I do try to integrate

949
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,160
social science concerns and methods.

950
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,800
But also, I mean, and this is partly
because I've taught international studies,

951
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,080
which included economic development
internationally.

952
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,240
I taught history of recreation.

953
00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:30,240
I, I taught event planning.

954
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:31,440
You know, and then.

955
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,440
I've also taught in food and nutrition,
teaching

956
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,600
the cultural aspects of food.

957
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,680
And I'm very aware
that students need to get jobs.

958
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,960
You know, so, you know, I'm, I'm
very sympathetic to the people who say,

959
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:50,680
well, you know, it's all fun to you
to read about the history of food,

960
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:56,120
but it's can it get me a job, you know,
and I say, yes, it will so.

961
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,840
But you like to be a little more creative.

962
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,240
And how you present yourself.

963
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:02,160
And a lot

964
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,160
of this goes back to

965
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,760
I think, American

966
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,760
Society in American academia.

967
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,960
And is

968
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,960
Ppushing the humanities aside.

969
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,600
Part of that
is the all of a lot of humanities scholars

970
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,280
who don't really see the need

971
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,360
for more practical stuff
or for pragmatic applications.

972
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,840
Humanities theories.

973
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,840
You know, but

974
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:34,400
they.

975
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,400
They haven't been trying to integrate

976
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,480
like public sector stuff
with, with academic.

977
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,000
And I.

978
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,760
I've always done that a lot.

979
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,520
Well,
one of the other things that I do, there's

980
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:54,000
the National Association
for interpretation, which works with

981
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,640
its it's mostly like environmental education
and park rangers.

982
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,080
And it developed these

983
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,040
sort of techniques and strategies

984
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,040
for, how to help park rangers

985
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,480
get people to not feed the bears.

986
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,720
You know, because the park rangers

987
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:16,680
are always telling people,
don't feed the wild

988
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:18,360
animals. 
Don't feed the bears.

989
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:19,440
And nobody ever listens.

990
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,440
You know, so, you know,
so they were trying to come up with

991
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,520
methods
and strategies that they could use.

992
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,880
And I started realizing this is very,
very similar to public sector folklore.

993
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,000
In which we were

994
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:33,720
helping

995
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:36,680
individuals
have their own voice to the public.

996
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:39,920
We would do a lot of presenting.

997
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,920
So, a Folklife festival, for example.

998
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:43,640
You know, it's

999
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,320
not just sitting around enjoying the music
or helping people understand.

1000
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,840
I'd like to say they understand
when to clap and how

1001
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,840
loud and why.

1002
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:55,760
You know so so they go

1003
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,320
away

1004
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,760
understanding something about the people
behind the music and, but also understand

1005
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,760
that there are all these different ways
to respond to music.

1006
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,520
And yeah they might not like it you know.

1007
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:08,440
So I was

1008
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:13,320
able to do a lot of that with food
at the Smithsonian Folklife Festivals.

1009
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,680
And I've worked with them over the years.

1010
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:18,960
The Smithsonian Senior

1011
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,960
Research Fellowship in 2010
and look specifically

1012
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,760
at how they were presenting food.

1013
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:29,840
You know, and

1014
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,840
and I like to say that this type of work.

1015
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,640
Is definitely
a window into other cultures,

1016
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,760
but even more so, it's a mirror
on our own culture

1017
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,600
and on our own personal values

1018
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:49,160
and histories, personalities.

1019
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,320
You know, so if if someone at
at a festival comes up and says

1020
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:55,400
And, and

1021
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,000
people would frequently do this because I,

1022
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,960
I try to open it up and create it
like this creates situations.

1023
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,880
They can come up to me and say,

1024
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:05,640
this food smells horrible.

1025
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,640
How could anybody ever eat it?

1026
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:10,520
So and they

1027
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,120
would say that about kimchi.

1028
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:16,360
I remember presenting kimchi
like in 1981, two

1029
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,440
1383, I think it was.

1030
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,520
And people would come over to me
because they didn't want to be rude

1031
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,840
to the women who are showing to
the Korean women who are showing kimchi.

1032
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:27,160
Yeah.

1033
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,600
You know, so they would,
they would come over and talk to me

1034
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,720
and say do they really eat this 
it smells horrendous it's awful.

1035
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,080
And and I realized

1036
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:38,240
what this does.

1037
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:41,160
Is it can show them

1038
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,160
what their true culture is.

1039
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:45,600
Yeah.

1040
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:50,320
And so it's not a matter of, now
they understand more about foreignness.

1041
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,600
They understand that their own food
culture is a construction

1042
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,640
based on their experiences, their values.

1043
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,280
And and people aren't
used to thinking about food in that way.

1044
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,000
So just giving them

1045
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,440
that, that idea,
you know, so I feel like that's

1046
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,800
the kind of thing that humanities can do.

1047
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,280
Yeah.

1048
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:14,640
It's

1049
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:20,560
being pushed aside because funding goes
to things that you can show solid numbers.

1050
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:21,200
Yeah.

1051
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,080
And and, you know, so, you know,

1052
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,080
part of what I'd really like ASFS to do
is to encourage more.

1053
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,800
And I think they actually do
this, encourage collaborative projects,

1054
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,960
humanities, social science, people
from different, different backgrounds.

1055
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:40,640
You know, and then

1056
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,640
those of us
who are coming from the humanities.

1057
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,680
I wish I could write more quickly.

1058
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,000
So get these ideas out there.

1059
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,200
You know, and more

1060
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,200
articulately so that.

1061
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:55,920
We needed to

1062
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,920
to really emphasize that meaningfulness

1063
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,520
is central
to understanding human behavior

1064
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,280
around food.

1065
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,720
And it ties into sustainability
and to nutrition.

1066
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,360
All those. So. 
Yeah.

1067
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,080
Well and kind of I guess
along the same lines in terms of like the,

1068
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,760
we're talking about the, the,
you know, the production of,

1069
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,560
tangible goods in terms of this data
that's very easy to see.

1070
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,720
So kind of along those lines,
what role do you think ASFS should take

1071
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:32,760
in the production of monographs,
journals, edited collections, articles

1072
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,720
about food studies, digital projects,
public facing projects.

1073
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:38,400
And I think this can be interpreted.

1074
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,680
This question is both like ASFS
as an organization,

1075
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,840
because we know that other organizations.

1076
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,840
Oxford Food Symposium,
I think is a good example.

1077
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,840
With the journal and kind of the things
that they, they hold online,

1078
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:52,920
or or is

1079
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,520
that, is that not something we should
or something is more of like,

1080
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,560
like us lifting up the scholars of ASFS

1081
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,560
rather than as an organization.

1082
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:04,120
And you know

1083
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,720
I would be very hesitant
for the organization

1084
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:10,880
to put out like the book
on what food studies is.

1085
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,520
Yeah.
Because

1086
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,520
just because it wouldn't
include everybody.

1087
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,360
And and

1088
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:19,880
There's so

1089
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,880
many ways of approaching food

1090
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:24,000
that

1091
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:28,280
it'd be very easy for,
for some of the ways

1092
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,400
that are not as visible.

1093
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:33,960
Could could be not included.

1094
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,760
Part of what I'm seeing now.

1095
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,000
There are so many

1096
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,240
food histories
being written around individual foods.

1097
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:44,560
It's it's a very easy topic.

1098
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,080
You know

1099
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,720
for historians to do.

1100
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:50,760
And people coming out of

1101
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,360
out of English literature
are analyzing food

1102
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,560
motifs in and that's, that's
all valid stuff that needs to be done.

1103
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,760
They tend to write

1104
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,840
more articulately and more quickly.

1105
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,560
They have very well-defined subjects.

1106
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,640
So, it's easier to write that stuff.

1107
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:13,720
Yeah.

1108
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:14,400
They don't they

1109
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:19,120
don't grapple with it morally
as as much as I think the rest of us do.

1110
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,040
I don't feel like I have imposter

1111
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:25,080
syndrome as much as I just have
too many morals and ethics.

1112
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,640
Like quarreling inside my body saying
like, but what about but what about?

1113
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,080
Exactly. Well, and you know, I

1114
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,080
I do think it's important for food studies
and this you know,

1115
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,880
this is obviously
in my folklore background, but

1116
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:44,160
it really needs to, to keep

1117
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:49,560
that ethnographic element and,
and make sure that,

1118
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,240
you know,
that it's not just theoretical stuff on,

1119
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,000
you know, this is what this book means,
but what does it mean to these people,

1120
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:58,920
to these individuals?

1121
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,320
And that's very hard to do.

1122
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,040
Yeah. You know, it's

1123
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,040
you know, if you do well

1124
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,200
in the social sciences,
people try to do that through surveys.

1125
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:11,640
But we all know that when people sit down

1126
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,040
to do a survey,
they respond very differently from

1127
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,960
if they're at a dinner party somewhere.

1128
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,400
And so the type of

1129
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:25,800
more informal ethnographic research
that I think a lot of us do

1130
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,000
in food studies
means we're standing in line

1131
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,000
at the grocery store
and people make comments.

1132
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,160
That's data for us, right?

1133
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:35,520
That's not

1134
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:36,480
data for.

1135
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,640
Our brains never turn off. 
Exactly.

1136
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:45,120
And so I'm so I have admired your work
for so long, and it feels really good

1137
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,360
to hear someone at your experience and,
and all the knowledge

1138
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,920
that you've experienced
so far to say what I have in my brain.

1139
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,280
Like you just you're constantly gathering.

1140
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:57,840
And that makes me feel really good

1141
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,840
because it makes it clear
that my brain is not broken.

1142
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:02,200
Right.

1143
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,480
Right.

1144
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,120
So, kind of along

1145
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:10,360
those lines of things that ASFS
and then food scholars in particular,

1146
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,960
or in general,
need to kind of keep an eye out for

1147
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:19,360
what do you think about, as food
studies has grown as a field

1148
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:23,440
so too have the number of subjects and
cuisines taken seriously by food studies

1149
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,280
has the diversity of scholars,
involved in food studies

1150
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,280
has been outpaced
by the scholarship in food studies?

1151
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,080
And, you know,
should there be steps to address that?

1152
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:34,200
And then similarly,

1153
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:35,720
what do you

1154
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,720
feel or what do you feel ASFS has not done,

1155
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,080
or has done
to encourage this diversification in,

1156
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:44,640
in its ranks?

1157
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,480
Well, it it's interesting because we,
we have a very similar discussion

1158
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:53,160
in, in folkloristics
and the American Folklore Society.

1159
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:58,280
And I think the best way to increase
diversity

1160
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,040
is to increase

1161
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,200
the visibility and viability of the field.

1162
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,560
So, I remember when I was at the 

1163
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,560
University of Pennsylvania 
studying folklore, there was

1164
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,520
a young African-American man

1165
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,520
who was he was finishing up
his undergraduate work,

1166
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,240
and he was very interested
in doing a degree in folklore.

1167
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,240
And so he was he was coming
to some of the graduate classes,

1168
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,240
and he was being encouraged
to studying folklore.

1169
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,120
He would say, well, I have all these

1170
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,040
I have to pay student loans.

1171
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:37,760
I come he came from a very poor family.

1172
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:39,760
He had to think in terms of making

1173
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,280
money and

1174
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:43,520
folklorist.

1175
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,560
I mean, this is you could actually get
a job as a folklorist,

1176
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,200
you know, back in the 80s.

1177
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:50,440
And 90s.

1178
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,040
And I now
it's a little more difficult.

1179
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,200
You know, but still, it, you know.

1180
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,800
People were not getting paid
as much as as he felt he needed.

1181
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,800
So, he ended up taking these classes.

1182
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,440
But I think he end up doing a Master's
in finance or something

1183
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:08,720
And, and.

1184
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,520
He, he thought he found
the folklore class is useful for that.

1185
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,520
It helped him understand human behavior.

1186
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:15,880
Oh that's awesome. 
And that,

1187
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:17,640
you know.

1188
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,600
You know, but he didn't see it as a field
that was viable for him.

1189
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,280
So and I

1190
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:27,280
think that's true of a lot of people.

1191
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:29,600
You know, with I

1192
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,160
I do like to think of diversity also

1193
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,800
it's, it's so much more than different

1194
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,800
races, different ethnicities.

1195
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,880
You know, there's different regions
that you come from.

1196
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:45,560
Different color hair.

1197
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:46,600
Yeah.

1198
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,600
I mean, which sounds silly, but

1199
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,000
No, as a redhead, I totally get you.

1200
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,880
Yeah. Well, and

1201
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,880
as a young blond woman
with a southern accent.

1202
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,880
So, I was there were so many times
when I was, I was stereotyped.

1203
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,840
And and not

1204
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,520
I'm not even an American really.

1205
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:07,560
Yeah.

1206
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,480
You know, so,

1207
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:11,160
You know that I think we need

1208
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,280
to broaden the concept of of diversity.

1209
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:16,720
Do that somehow without

1210
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:19,280
without ignoring.

1211
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,720
And that's
not a way to get us off the hook

1212
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,920
for looking at the structural
discrimination.

1213
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:26,680
Yeah.

1214
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,760
And lack of diversity
that we do have in our country.

1215
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,040
You know, but we need

1216
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:33,960
we need to.

1217
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,600
I don't know,
sort of recognize the complexity of human

1218
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,600
nature and of culture.

1219
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:41,560
So yeah.

1220
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,560
So I do, I do think ASFS has been

1221
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,360
they have been very good about promoting,

1222
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:51,480
grants and scholarships

1223
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:54,600
and allowing space for diversity.

1224
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,640
I look at someone like Michael Twitty who

1225
01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:59,600
I met, I met

1226
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,320
a long time ago at a conference. And,

1227
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,360
we decide we're probably related way back.

1228
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:09,480
Oh, wow.

1229
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,800
So but I know, I

1230
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,200
know he felt very encouraged.

1231
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,560
Coming to the meetings and

1232
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,360
going to continue pursuing the

1233
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,440
you know, this stuff's important.

1234
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,360
And I think it also gave him

1235
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:25,080
and I've I've.

1236
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,840
been on a number of panels
and things with him too.

1237
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,160
And

1238
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,840
I always tried to

1239
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:35,840
I feel like the field of folklore
recognizes

1240
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:37,040
that

1241
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:41,120
humans can have multiple motivations
for things and that

1242
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:42,960
and that

1243
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,640
situations can be interpreted
in so many different

1244
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,640
ways.

1245
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:50,400
You know, so

1246
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,400
it's kind of a more

1247
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:54,640
it's so, it's

1248
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,640
the most humane of the humanities
is whatever. We

1249
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:00,400
I mean, I know we're biased.

1250
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,560
Yeah, we're we're biased
about that sure,

1251
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,960
but I also agree with you on that.

1252
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,000
Yeah.

1253
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,000
So kind of kind of continuing on that.

1254
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:14,560
So there's as I, I feel like we, you know,
we've we're all in the same boat.

1255
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,800
We're experiencing
this changing of the guard

1256
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:21,200
that's happening across the academy,
new scholars bringing in new their own

1257
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,200
disciplinary priorities
to the field of food studies,

1258
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,840
but also kind of a change
in like a paradigm shift,

1259
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,840
right, in that I, I'm not affiliated.

1260
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,520
And I know a lot of my colleagues,
who recently

1261
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:36,600
graduated with their masters
or their PhDs are not affiliated either.

1262
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,440
So, there's not only this changing
of the guard in the academy,

1263
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,440
but a changing of how the academy kind of

1264
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,560
also extends into these public sectors,

1265
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,440
which you obviously have
a lot of experience with.

1266
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,600
And for some of us, it's
because of jobs and money

1267
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,680
or motherhood,
which was kind of all three for me.

1268
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:57,720
And, and for

1269
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,880
others, it's just because they didn't find
what they needed in the academy.

1270
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:02,440
But in general,

1271
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,360
so I would want to expand this question.

1272
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,440
So both in the academy
and beyond, the academy and still

1273
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,800
within the beautiful big confines of ASFS
and food studies.

1274
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,840
What do you see gaining traction
in these new spaces that might shape

1275
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,880
the direction,
the future direction of ASFS.

1276
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,560
These, you know, the thing gaining
traction could be scholarship or just,

1277
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,840
you know, other things that are impacting
the way we do food studies.

1278
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:29,800
I know, I, you know

1279
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,720
one of the things that that is happening,

1280
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,720
unfortunately,
when people are scrambling for work

1281
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,680
and scrambling to look after families,

1282
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,280
it's it's hard to sit down and write. And

1283
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,520
so I think part of,

1284
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:51,440
you know, part

1285
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,640
part of what we need to try to do is

1286
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,200
create spaces

1287
01:04:58,200 --> 01:04:59,600
and at

1288
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,040
times that
in which we can all be working together

1289
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:05,920
to encourage each other to write.

1290
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:06,480
I know one.

1291
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,120
Of the other issues,

1292
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:13,320
because it is still, if you don't publish,
you're not recognized.

1293
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:15,720
Yeah. You know, and.

1294
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:21,240
And for me, at this point, that doesn't
it doesn't have any bearing on, on jobs.

1295
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:24,920
But like, I think there's important stuff
to get out there.

1296
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:26,520
You know. 
Yeah.

1297
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:28,000
So and I feel like

1298
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:33,480
the perspectives that we have are useful
and are needed.

1299
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,680
You know,
particularly politically right now.

1300
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:39,680
You know, so,

1301
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:41,920
I think if, if there

1302
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,800
were more

1303
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:46,800
more opportunities

1304
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,120
to help people get their publications out.

1305
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:51,760
Yeah.

1306
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,480
You know, do things like podcast,
the types of things

1307
01:05:55,480 --> 01:06:00,280
that actually are being used today
to speak to the general public.

1308
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,880
So, I think
that could be really, really useful.

1309
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,600
And it sounds like
maybe we also need to be organizing

1310
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:12,320
ASFS writing retreats
or writing groups of some sort.

1311
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:16,720
And maybe like, you know, I know
we don't all get along with each other.

1312
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:20,520
There's still beef
within the ASFS at large, but

1313
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,920
I can see these little, you know,
we spend a day in the conference week

1314
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:29,080
where we also just sit
in our respective little covens

1315
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:33,000
and we write and we,
you know, we we make that space.

1316
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:36,000
I, I'd sign up for that.
That would be fun.

1317
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,720
And and part of it would be.

1318
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,720
Just because food
is such a massive topic.

1319
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,360
And somebody can be very knowledgeable
in their own discipline

1320
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,720
and they start writing about food
and then don't realize,

1321
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,760
well, wait a minute,
you know, this other person, you know

1322
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,920
has already written
a book on that specifically.

1323
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,400
And so, just being able
to toss these ideas around.

1324
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,600
I think can be helpful.

1325
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:03,760
Peer the

1326
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,760
peer reviews for the journals

1327
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,480
in theory do that
frequently though it's more

1328
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,480
a matter of

1329
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:15,320
people.

1330
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,480
People are not that they don't know
how to do reviews in a kind

1331
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,360
productive way.
Yeah.

1332
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,320
So and so they look at something
and if it doesn't fit their particular

1333
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:30,280
disciplinary paradigm, they,
they just dismiss it completely.

1334
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:34,640
And, that's that that's not helpful.

1335
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:36,120
So.
No,

1336
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:39,320
Especially for young scholars,
if you get that first rejection

1337
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,200
and it can be gutting,
especially when you get two readers

1338
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:45,720
and one is glowing
and the other one is not,

1339
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:47,600
and you don't know where to go with that.

1340
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,000
Yes. Yes.
You know. I, I am great

1341
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,840
I'm very grateful to be in the stage
where I get to review.

1342
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:57,840
I'm asked to peer review,
and if I can't come up with something

1343
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:02,400
nice to say, I, I try to let my words,
you know, make it clear

1344
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,840
like I don't say nothing at all
for very particular reasons.

1345
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,160
And I, I don't know,
I strive to be incredibly gracious

1346
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:14,760
in all of my reviews because I have been
on the receiving end of some very non-

1347
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,440
constructive critical reviews,
and that's just not good.

1348
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:19,640
That didn't help me.

1349
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:24,880
So, I guess what are,

1350
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:29,360
does ASFS in your opinion,
does ASFS serve as a venue where contesting

1351
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:33,160
cultural, ethnic, and class
differences and approaches to food studies

1352
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,600
can center
or can enter a dialog with one another?

1353
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:40,640
So does ASFS foster
these kinds of conversations? Would ASFS

1354
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,880
be a good place for our
our writing retreat

1355
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:46,880
where we have these dialogs
and then we go off and write together?

1356
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,720
I think so, I think so, and I know

1357
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:56,040
I, I tend to find more papers,

1358
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,840
of interest to me personally

1359
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:03,560
when it's the years
that ASFS is sponsoring.

1360
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,560
So, and that's just because of my
my particular interest.

1361
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:09,000
But but I.

1362
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,000
think it's also very important
to be exposed

1363
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,000
to those other issues,

1364
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:18,120
and other methods of study and food.

1365
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:21,800
I'm just kind of dismayed
that that sometimes people are getting

1366
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:25,680
these massive grants
for something that we do

1367
01:09:26,480 --> 01:09:28,760
for, you know, $500.

1368
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:29,680
Yeah.

1369
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:31,640
So, I hear you.

1370
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:33,760
Yeah. You know, so.

1371
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,080
I would
I would like to see ASFS doing is

1372
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,160
is helping form collaborations.

1373
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:42,440
So that

1374
01:09:42,440 --> 01:09:46,240
when someone is, is doing something on

1375
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:49,800
you know like

1376
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:53,240
nutritional needs among
an immigrant population

1377
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,520
in a particular city,

1378
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,680
they're also bringing in humanities

1379
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:02,160
scholars
who have studied the concept of ethnicity.

1380
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:04,360
Yeah.

1381
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:05,720
You know, and, and.

1382
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:09,000
Partly
it would be a way for those humanities

1383
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,520
scholars
who don't have access to the grants.

1384
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:12,840
And those of us.

1385
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:16,280
I'm not I'm not attached to my university
anymore for grants.

1386
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:21,200
And so it's very hard
to get the funding to do research.

1387
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,720
Yeah. So 
It it is,

1388
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:25,000
Yeah.

1389
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,160
There's so much to gain from collaboration
and very little

1390
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,400
the risks are low
and the and the potentials

1391
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:35,240
seem to be quite great,
but it's, it's that, you know,

1392
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:39,440
you have to do the hard work
of reaching out and, and opening up

1393
01:10:39,440 --> 01:10:43,280
for others, which we're just not good
at as humans these days.

1394
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:44,560
It seems like not just ASFS.

1395
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:46,800
Well, and

1396
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,800
I'm and and I'm trying to think of.

1397
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,480
Of how ASFS could do that.

1398
01:10:52,480 --> 01:10:55,400
A really really good example,

1399
01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:00,520
was when I was teaching
and the food and the nutrition program

1400
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:03,520
here at Bowling Green State University.

1401
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:06,120
I was, I was teaching,

1402
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:09,120
like, the cultural aspects of food,
you know,

1403
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:11,600
that that's a whole different story.

1404
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,720
And I could, I think, for a long time,
you know, for nutrition students,

1405
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:19,000
you know,
but there was a, a Chinese foood Chinese

1406
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:22,480
scholar who came in to teach,

1407
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:25,480
and during Covid.

1408
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:28,080
She, she did

1409
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:29,280
she got

1410
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,080
a large grant to do a national survey

1411
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,680
on what nutritionists call
emotional eating,

1412
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:40,960
but what most people refer to as comfort
food.

1413
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:46,080
And I was also doing an oral history
and an international oral history

1414
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:49,080
on ways in which people found comfort

1415
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:52,160
and discomfort
through food during the pandemic.

1416
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,400
So, she and I started talking.

1417
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,400
This is your liminality of scones piece?

1418
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:01,080
Oh, that's that was one of them.

1419
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:03,240
Okay cool. I loved that piece.

1420
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:04,800
Oh good. Oh good.

1421
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:06,480
That was

1422
01:12:06,480 --> 01:12:08,600
I did that one with my daughter,
actually.

1423
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:09,600
Oh, I love that even more.

1424
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:11,000
Yeah.

1425
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,840
You know, she's she's a sociologist
in Ireland.

1426
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,080
So fun. Yeah.

1427
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:18,920
So. So she actually works with women's
public health.

1428
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:20,640
Doesn't have anything to do with food. 

1429
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:23,680
So, but, and and Irish dance

1430
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:25,480
too. 
But, 

1431
01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:28,480
So this Chinese scholar had

1432
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,800
she had all this data
and she didn't know what to do with it.

1433
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:34,680
So she came to me, I said, well, you know,

1434
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,000
we could let's look at this
in terms of the concept and comfort food.

1435
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:39,440
And so.

1436
01:12:39,440 --> 01:12:44,120
I I wrote up kind of a humanities
interpretation of the data.

1437
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:47,320
We ended up publishing that

1438
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:50,320
and it got her tenure.

1439
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,120
And it has gotten.

1440
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:54,600
I mean, it's it's.

1441
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,480
Referenced, you know, by
so many people in the nutrition world

1442
01:12:58,480 --> 01:13:01,480
because it was published in a nutrition
journal.

1443
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:04,200
You know, and and it

1444
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:06,440
amazed me that I mean she was thrilled.

1445
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:09,040
She thought oh this is so interesting.
I never thought of this.

1446
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,000
This is such basic stuff I thought.

1447
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,480
That's amazing.
Yeah.

1448
01:13:14,480 --> 01:13:17,200
You know, you know but it was to have the

1449
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:19,720
opportunity to work with her.

1450
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:20,800
Yeah.

1451
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,520
Was what was really nice.

1452
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:24,400
And, and then

1453
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,400
to see the impact of that

1454
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:29,640
and just it's, it's

1455
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,800
referenced by so many nutritionists now

1456
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:35,880
internationally,
I mean, particularly Chinese ones.

1457
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:37,400
This is

1458
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,680
That is so cool

1459
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:40,520
And, you know

1460
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:44,080
if we can create opportunities
like that, that's

1461
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:46,720
More of that. 
Yeah, that sounds lovely.

1462
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,880
I, I have some similar stuff
that I'm working on now, and I,

1463
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:53,960
I've never been more delighted
to be in those shared spaces and be,

1464
01:13:54,480 --> 01:13:57,120
you know,
someone that gets to say this is basic,

1465
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:01,200
but also, I'm so excited to hold your hand
as we walk through this.

1466
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:03,240
And then I learn from you new stuff, too.

1467
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:05,040
It is really cool,

1468
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:08,040
but I know, I know how special it is
and how rare that is.

1469
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:10,400
Which it shouldn't be.
We should have more of it.

1470
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:13,520
So I guess that leads us to as as we're

1471
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,680
losing time quickly
to some wrapping up questions.

1472
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:21,120
Some big questions can we can almost treat
these as rapid fire if we feel like it.

1473
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:24,560
So what are your hopes for food studies
in the next 40 years?

1474
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:29,120
So, I hope that it

1475
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:32,680
continues to strengthen
the integration of social science

1476
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:36,040
and and the humanities.

1477
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:39,400
I think also

1478
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:42,160
we and food studies in general

1479
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:42,720
needs

1480
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:46,080
to demonstrate how these ideas

1481
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:49,080
could be applied
for employment for students.

1482
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:51,160
Some of that is obvious.

1483
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,440
You know, they go into marketing or,
you know, developing

1484
01:14:54,440 --> 01:14:56,400
farmers markets and all that.

1485
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:58,840
There's there's
so much more that people can do.

1486
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,080
So I, I, I'd

1487
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,160
like to see that because then that would
bring more students into the field.

1488
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:06,600
Sure.

1489
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:08,920
So and, and it would

1490
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,280
help those that are graduating.

1491
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,280
It would help them find jobs. Yeah.

1492
01:15:14,440 --> 01:15:15,520
So I think

1493
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:19,720
the, the small,
the small grants that they offer.

1494
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,000
I know I used one of those
for the comfort food

1495
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:28,080
ethnography that I did,
and I was able to pay,

1496
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:31,280
a graduate student

1497
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,280
to develop the website for that.

1498
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,920
An online exhibit that led to her

1499
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:40,920
getting other jobs.

1500
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,280
And she's now doing a PhD in folklore.

1501
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:44,160
Nice.

1502
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:46,720
So she was able to get fellowships
and things. So, yeah.

1503
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:48,240
These opportunities

1504
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:51,120
Well,
and and two of the students who were,

1505
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:53,640
who are involved in that

1506
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:56,680
also went on to get fellowships
for, for graduate school.

1507
01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:58,680
So, you know, so and that was

1508
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:00,360
500 dollars.

1509
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,600
You know. You know, from ASFS.

1510
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:06,960
So, it might have been a thousand, you know, but 
Every bit counts.

1511
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:11,360
And, and half of it is, you know, half of
it is, is having that experience too.

1512
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:13,640
Yes, exactly.

1513
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:17,520
And you know, those small amounts
I know for people in the social sciences,

1514
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:19,200
I say, what's $500?

1515
01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:22,280
Those of us in the humanities.

1516
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:25,080
That's a good chunk of money.

1517
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:26,600
You know, and

1518
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:30,160
you know,
so there's so many opportunities like that

1519
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:33,440
that we could encourage and provide

1520
01:16:34,440 --> 01:16:36,040
mentoring.

1521
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:38,560
You know, people having so,

1522
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,560
so many of us have a lot of different
varied experiences.

1523
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,440
We don't even realize
that we have knowledge that's useful.

1524
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:49,840
Or so many intersections to

1525
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:55,280
so many things that we share that,
that create even closer kind of kinship,

1526
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,840
that then allow us to have like better
working relationships too.

1527
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,360
Yes, there's, there's more, more
collaboration on all the different levels.

1528
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,720
So okay,
so I think this is the last big question.

1529
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:07,960
What haven't

1530
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,720
Is there anything else that you wanted
to talk about today that we haven't?

1531
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:14,160
I know, I feel like you and I could talk
for hours about all the things.

1532
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:17,360
And then is there anything else about
ASFS that you'd like to share?

1533
01:17:20,440 --> 01:17:21,040
I feel like

1534
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:22,360
ASFS

1535
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:26,520
has it's it's been crucial to my career

1536
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:30,560
because I've gotten the affirmation
encouragement.

1537
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:33,960
Kind of the audience for

1538
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:36,040
things there

1539
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:38,160
it's also because

1540
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,920
because it is so diverse
with so many different, diverse,

1541
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:46,600
disciplinary backgrounds coming in.

1542
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:47,080
I kind of

1543
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:50,680
feel safer presenting ideas in some ways.

1544
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:51,560
Yeah.

1545
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:53,000
You know, so.

1546
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:54,480
There have been a

1547
01:17:54,480 --> 01:17:59,520
number of, presentations that I've done
that are kind of the preliminary.

1548
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:01,920
So these are my thoughts, you know.

1549
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:03,680
Does this make sense?

1550
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,200
And I feel like, is that kind of a place.

1551
01:18:07,480 --> 01:18:10,280
You know,
I don't want to be disrespectful or,

1552
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:12,840
you know, waste people's time

1553
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:15,240
at the conference, but I feel like it's

1554
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:18,240
people are open to

1555
01:18:18,480 --> 01:18:21,720
to new ideas and, and, and new approaches.

1556
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,000
So, I really appreciate that about it.

1557
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,560
So and

1558
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,560
it's always been great fun to do the

1559
01:18:33,480 --> 01:18:36,720
Sorry, the cat is now coming 
to play with the microphone too.

1560
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:38,960
So, the

1561
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:44,480
the offsite tours of restaurants,

1562
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:48,000
you know, there have been like walking
food tours for a couple of.

1563
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,560
And those have, really enlightening.

1564
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:53,240
That's awesome.

1565
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:55,080
Yeah, I appreciate that.

1566
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:56,800
So yeah, I would.

1567
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:58,520
But I would say definitely

1568
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,880
we need to keep the humanities
strengthen the humanities side.

1569
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:04,720
All right. Well,
we have our our marching orders.

1570
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:06,440
That sounds great.

1571
01:19:06,440 --> 01:19:10,600
So I just want to say on behalf of the 
ASFS 40 Committee and ASFS

1572
01:19:11,440 --> 01:19:14,880
in general, I want to thank you for
taking the time to speak with me today.

1573
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:18,080
And, for, I guess, anyone

1574
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:21,080
listening,
please get in touch with John Lang

1575
01:19:21,480 --> 01:19:24,600
at lang@oxy.edu,
if you have any questions.

1576
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:26,640
And thank you so much.

1577
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:26,960
Sure.

1578
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:28,160
And I hope to have a

1579
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:30,240
cheese kimchi sandwich with you at the next.

1580
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:33,240
Likewise. 
Let's make it happen.

1581
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:35,920
Let's make it happen. 
Okay. Okay.