1 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,360 This is our ASFS 40 recording. 2 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,920 I'm Emily Contois, and I have the privilege of interviewing 3 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,560 Jan Poppendieck. 4 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,960 It is goodness gracious. What day is it? 5 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,200 It is April 1st. 6 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,920 We decided to do this on April Fool's Day. 7 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,240 It is, Tuesday, April 1st of 2025. 8 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,440 And this is our recording session. 9 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,480 I am, coming to you from Tulsa, Oklahoma. 10 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,200 And, Jan, where you coming from today? 11 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,160 Brooklyn, New York. Brava. 12 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,840 So, the Association for the Study of Food and Society 13 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,720 was founded in 1985, the year after I was born. 14 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:08,800 To promote the interdisciplinary study of food 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,160 and society as part of its 40th anniversary. 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,640 We wanted to chronicle the history of ASFS as an organization 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,080 and reflect on its role in the broader field of food studies. 18 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:20,880 As part of this effort. 19 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,720 We're conducting a series of video interviews with esteemed individuals 20 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:30,120 like Jan to gather insights about ASFS's past, present, and future. 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,440 So to start us off, Jen, where are you from? 22 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,640 I was born in new Jersey, central New Jersey, 23 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:42,480 and, lived in, Metuchen, New Jersey until I was 12. 24 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,840 My dad taught at Rutgers. 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,920 And then I moved to the Washington area when he took a job with the 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,160 the federal government and lived there 27 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,160 until I went off to college. 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,840 And so where'd you go to school when you were, 29 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,840 as a child and then going into college and grad school? 30 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,720 Well, as a child, I went to local, public schools, 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,720 the Edgar School in Metuchen, New Jersey, 32 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,920 and then I, went to high school in Alexandria, Virginia, 33 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,720 which was where we lived in the Washington area, Francis C Hammond High School. 34 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,120 And I did my undergraduate work at Duke. 35 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,400 I graduated from Duke in 1967. 36 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,880 Quite a while before you were born. 37 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:36,520 And, went on to do doctoral work at Brandeis University, 38 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,560 the Florence Heller Graduate School for Advanced Studies in Social Welfare, 39 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,320 as it was known then. 40 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,400 And you've had an illustrious research and teaching career. 41 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,160 But tell us about it. Like the topics you focused on, 42 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,160 the methods that you used. 43 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,920 Well, I will start by saying that my entire teaching career 44 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,480 was at Hunter College of the City University of New York. 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,680 A wonderful institution and a real reflection of, of New York 46 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:12,000 and its diversity and its energy and its contribution to upward mobility. 47 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,920 So, I feel very lucky to have landed 48 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,040 at Hunter. 49 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,040 My research has 50 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,680 and in some ways my teaching, but certainly my research and writing 51 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:31,920 have all been focused around the issue of hunger in the United States. 52 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,040 Now, we generally call it food insecurity. 53 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,400 And, I started this 54 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,840 with my, 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,040 with, with my first graduate work. 56 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,880 We were required for a Master's level 57 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,000 course sequence to, choose a social problem 58 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,360 and write a substantive analysis of a social problem. 59 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,240 And I chose hunger in America. 60 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,320 In part because I was awakened 61 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,680 and aware in 1968 62 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,480 when Hunger USA and Our Daily Bread 63 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,720 to major exposes of hunger and that particularly 64 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,240 of the failure of food assistance programs were published. 65 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,480 And so I went off to graduate school 66 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,480 in a sense with the with a burning issue. 67 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,960 I did that substitute the master's level thing 68 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,640 as an analysis of, of public policy failure 69 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,040 of what I or, 70 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,920 the ways in which the existing food assistance programs, commodity 71 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:52,040 distribution, the early food stamp program, the school meal programs 72 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,440 were failing the people in our country who were in need of them. 73 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,280 And then I for my dissertation, I undertook a history 74 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,080 of food assistance to understand how they got that way. 75 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,400 So, basically an origins of federal food assistance in the Great Depression. 76 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:12,800 So, that was that was the start. 77 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,280 And then I moved on to take a look at charitable, research. 78 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,640 Sweet Charity: Emergency Food and the End of Entitlement 79 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,320 was basically a qualitative study 80 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:31,040 of the emerging empire, if you will, or extensive 81 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,880 network of soup kitchens, food pantries and food banks in the United States. 82 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,640 And I did hundreds of interviews not primarily with with recipients, 83 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,720 but with staff and volunteers trying to understand 84 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,240 how how this had come about. 85 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,920 And then I turned my attention to school food, and, 86 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,040 a Free for All: Fixing School 87 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,040 Food in America, 88 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:01,920 is still haunting me. 89 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,360 As the Republican led Congress considers 90 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,640 proposals to drastically cut support for school food so. 91 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,600 So, I think your work has been so profound for me. 92 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:21,280 Sweet charity was in like, my Intro to Gastronomy class when I joined BU. 93 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,080 And then we also read Free for All and so you can see all the sticky notes. 94 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,440 And so your work, you know, was every step of the way, 95 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,440 right, of thinking about what food studies is. 96 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,120 But given your trajectory, like food studies, was this baby discipline, right. 97 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,680 Like you've been part of building it. 98 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,520 And so when you think about the question, 99 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,520 you know, what brought you specifically to the topic of food studies? 100 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:42,960 It's maybe a little bit different 101 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,240 that it was something you were drawn to before 102 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,160 you could get a degree in it or take a class 103 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,640 that was called Intro to Food Studies. 104 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,760 So, what brought you specifically to the topic of food studies? 105 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:53,360 Okay. 106 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:58,120 Well, as you say, I mean, my interest, scholarly interest 107 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,440 in food insecurity predates 108 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,440 pretty much any discussion of food studies 109 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,440 as a, interdisciplinary field 110 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,560 or as a kind of proto discipline. 111 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,560 We we just weren't talking about food studies in the 19 112 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,600 I started my doctoral program in 1969. 113 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:25,680 So, there there were no there was no formal, or even informal network. 114 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,280 And food was not, 115 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,960 a big topic in the culture. 116 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:33,880 They went. 117 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,880 I don't think I ever heard anyone called a foodie 118 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,760 until long after, Breadlines Knee-Deep in Wheat was published, which, 119 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,520 you know, had been my dissertation and then reworked into a book. 120 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,200 So, I, 121 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,400 I was at what I thought think of as the founding 122 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,400 meeting of ASFS 123 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,520 And I think that was the first time I ever thought of myself 124 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:08,440 as part of food studies, or thought about there being a conglomeration 125 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,880 of, of interdisciplinary activities that we could call food 126 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,880 studies. Now, 127 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,960 the ASFS website in the materials 128 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,080 in preparation for these interviews, 129 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,400 said it was founded in 1985. 130 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,520 And the meeting I remember, by my calculations, 131 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,040 would have to have been in 1986. 132 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,320 So maybe I wasn't there at the founding meeting, 133 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,640 or maybe Bill and Yvonne 134 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:43,200 created ASFS before they pulled together a group of people, 135 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,920 because I certainly remember it as feeling like a founding meeting. 136 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:50,800 But anyway, I was 137 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,800 there at the very beginning, 138 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,960 and it was, 139 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,560 you know, a very exciting thing for me to realize 140 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:07,960 that there were all of these scholars working on aspects of food. 141 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,520 I think because my doctoral dissertation and the, 142 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,240 the first book I ever wrote was really a history. 143 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,160 I mean, I did much of the work 144 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,920 in the National Archives and the Columbia Oral History Collection. 145 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,920 And what have you. 146 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,080 But I wasn't seeking 147 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,920 a credential in history, nor when I started teaching. 148 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,160 Was I teaching in a history department. 149 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,600 So, I didn't, 150 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,600 comb the history literature 151 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:44,080 in the way I might have had I done a doctorate in, in history. 152 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,000 So, there were certainly food historians at work. 153 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,720 But I didn't see them as, 154 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:54,760 I didn't 155 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,960 see us as engaged in the same enterprise. 156 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,600 I think, you know, my real 157 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,760 my work life has been driven 158 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,480 by a concern about inequality 159 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,680 in access to food and nourishment and 160 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,040 the circumstances that make it possible for people 161 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,480 to not only have healthy food, but 162 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,480 to enjoy their food. 163 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,040 Thinking about this very early meeting that you were at, I'm 164 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,480 guessing there wasn't like a a call for papers like a traditional organ, is it? 165 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,600 What was it like to be the circumstances around 166 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,800 how you found yourself at this exciting gathering very 167 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,440 early on? 168 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,760 I went digging through some old materials today, trying to figure out 169 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,360 from whom did I get an invitation to to come to that meeting. 170 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,840 The reason I I'm fairly sure, or the reason I believe it was in 1976, is 171 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:02,320 because I spent that was a sabbatical year for me, and I was living in Mexico. 172 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:08,120 And I remember arranging to fly from Mexico to Kalamazoo, 173 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,720 Michigan, where where this meeting was held. And, 174 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,640 I had the resources to do that 175 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,600 because I had gotten a really wonderful fellowship from the W.K. 176 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,440 Kellogg Foundation. 177 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,600 So, it was a the called the Kellogg National Fellowship Program. 178 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,720 And it went on for three years. 179 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,520 And you got, a quarter of your time off. 180 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:39,360 And, they, they negotiated with your university or other employer, 181 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,520 but we were almost all academics for a quarter of your time off and, 182 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,520 and a pot of money 183 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,520 to learn about something outside your field. 184 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,560 So I, I had the resources to, 185 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,560 to attend this meeting, which I've been very grateful for 186 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,400 because it was, as I say, the meeting was a revelation to me. 187 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,320 There were certainly some presentations at that meeting. 188 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,680 It wasn't an academic annual conference. 189 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,960 ASFS didn't begin those until two years later. 190 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:19,680 But there were 191 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:23,160 definitely some presentations that kind of illustrated 192 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:26,440 different, 193 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,600 different disciplines that had an interest. 194 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,600 I remember that there was a presentation by a nutritionist, 195 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,440 and I believe there were a couple 196 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,880 because Bill Whit and and Yvonne Vissing were both sociologists. 197 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,720 So they 198 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,760 so but it was largely an informal discussion 199 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,840 about whether the time had come to create an organization. 200 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,160 And could we muster the resources through our various, 201 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,440 universities and our own time and effort to to do that? 202 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,560 Could we create and sustain 203 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:06,560 an organization and, 204 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,320 Yvonne was a folklorist, 205 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,680 although her discipline was sociology, 206 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,200 and she helped to create the organization, 207 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,200 but then kind of disappeared from it. 208 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,480 And whereas Bill Witt, who was the other founder, 209 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,040 stayed within really until he passed away. 210 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,040 So your comment about the Kellogg Fellowship 211 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,840 and getting to be trained in another discipline, leads us to this question 212 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,680 that, you know, Warren Belasco, when one of the other early fun ones, 213 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,480 once stated that to do food studies and academic needs to be a generalist, 214 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,720 that having that interdisciplinary skill set, 215 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,040 is part of what makes it possible to do food studies. 216 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:53,320 And so what do you think about that 217 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,320 question of being a generalist, of having that interdisciplinarity? 218 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,600 Do you think it appeals and applies to your work and to the field as a whole? 219 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,120 Well, let me start with the field as a whole. 220 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,680 I, I definitely think it applies to the field 221 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:11,040 as a whole, not his assertion that you have to be a generalist. 222 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,400 Because but you have to be 223 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,400 open to and interested in 224 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:23,480 perspectives and discoveries and research that's outside your field. 225 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,640 If you only want to more 226 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,200 and more narrowly specialized within your own discipline 227 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,720 or wherever your credentialing comes from, 228 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,920 I don't think you can get the full benefit 229 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,160 of food studies. 230 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:42,840 So, I definitely think 231 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,840 within the field for me, 232 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:47,920 I mean, I have been 233 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,920 a little bit of a of a one note 234 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,240 violin here. 235 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,240 I, I have never, 236 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,800 really, 237 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,480 left behind my concern 238 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,080 about the performance of public programs. 239 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,160 And then with Sweet Charity, 240 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,200 you already know I'm arguing in part 241 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,720 that it relieves the political pressure 242 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,920 for adequate public provision and substitutes, gifts for rights, 243 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:22,800 which is not the direction 244 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,280 I would like to see public policy go in the United States. 245 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,760 So in that sense, I mean, I've, I've been willing to use 246 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,040 any discipline 247 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,160 that comes to hand that that's useful in making my arguments. 248 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,320 So, in that sense, I certainly was a generalist, but 249 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:45,840 not in the 250 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,120 not in Belasco's sense of, you know, being an, 251 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,680 anthropologist and a poet. 252 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,720 So, I guess I can leave it 253 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,640 at that. 254 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,640 So, what is food studies mean to you? 255 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,720 Well, I think of food studies as, 256 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,680 an interdisciplinary effort to 257 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,600 learn about and teach about food, 258 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,880 I like the idea of three pillars 259 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,400 of production distribution, consumption, makes it, 260 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,360 you know, gives us a frame to organize it. 261 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,200 I guess the food 262 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,200 media studies, which I find very interesting, 263 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,160 would fit under that kind of distribution because they influence 264 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:41,280 what choices households make and what choices people make in, in, a 265 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,320 food, food away from home settings. But, 266 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,760 I don't think a lot about food studies. 267 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,800 I have when I was active in ASFS, 268 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,240 which I was throughout my career until I retired in 2012. 269 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,440 I thought quite 270 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,440 a lot about the organization. 271 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,120 But I don't tend to think about the field. 272 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,920 That's a really interesting distinction. 273 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,440 It'll be interesting to hear from other founders 274 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:23,800 with that relationship to the field. 275 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,000 The ideas the organization. 276 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,000 I mean, I found food 277 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,160 to be a wonderful 278 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,040 way to engage undergraduates. 279 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,960 I taught overwhelmingly undergraduate and master's level students, 280 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,400 for a variety of reasons. 281 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,640 And I found it to be a wonderful way 282 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,320 to engage them, to free them, 283 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,400 to claim their own expertise. 284 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,120 You know, not only does everybody eat, 285 00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,320 but almost 286 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,360 everybody has food culture, almost everybody. 287 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:06,600 Well, everybody has some kind of food culture, but 288 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,600 people have stories and 289 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,440 teaching in a classroom setting 290 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,240 where you can unlock those stories 291 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,840 and validate them and deduce from them 292 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:27,000 some lessons with broader application. 293 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,480 I think it's a great way to teach, 294 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,840 and I, I loved all of the food related courses 295 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,840 I ever taught. 296 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,200 So, in that but I, I didn't think of it. 297 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,840 Okay. I'm practicing food studies. 298 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,040 I, I, I guess I thought more about pedagogy. 299 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,200 So, your question sort of related more to the field is what do you think 300 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,200 food studies takes seriously and what does it not yet 301 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,480 take seriously? 302 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,320 I pondered that 303 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,320 in having looked at some of the preliminary questions, and I thought, 304 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,760 well, I don't know the answer to what does it take seriously? 305 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,440 And that's 306 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,800 because 307 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,800 I don't read enough 308 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,680 in the field to make any generalizations about it. 309 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,600 But what I don't think it takes seriously enough 310 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,200 is, public policy. 311 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,320 I think many of the the 312 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,040 very wonderful 313 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,080 pieces I have read that scholars have written 314 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,240 don't quite make it 315 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,240 to specifying the implications for public policy. 316 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,080 And, you know, 1 in 4 317 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,320 Americans participates 318 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,920 in one of the 15 federal food assistance programs. 319 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,600 We do much more for low income people through the food programs 320 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,200 than we do through cash assistance. 321 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,000 Which is I mean, TANF has 322 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,280 dwindled down to nearly nothing. 323 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,360 The Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, 324 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,360 which is what we used to call welfare. 325 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,120 And I feel like I would like to see 326 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:28,520 food studies taking the crisis that I think is emerging 327 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,200 for low income families as food prices rise and rise. 328 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:38,280 I, I've seen the figures on inflation, and I have to say that the food price rise 329 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,520 I've personally experienced, it is more dramatic 330 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,360 than what's what's being reported as the inflation rate. 331 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,920 And I hear it every time I'm checking out at a supermarket. 332 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,880 People aghast at their bills. 333 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,320 And I live in a neighborhood where most of us can afford 334 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:58,560 our food. 335 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,840 So, I would like to see food studies paying attention to what's happening 336 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,760 to people at the bottom end of the income distribution. 337 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,000 And I would like to see food studies paying attention, if it can, 338 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,320 to the aggregation of power at the top 339 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,320 end of the wealth distribution. 340 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,000 I think that perhaps answers 341 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,080 this next question, but I'll ask it just in case there's more you'd like to say. 342 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,560 Do you think that food studies as a scholarly endeavor 343 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,560 has or should have a mission or a vision? 344 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,800 And if so, what should they be? 345 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,760 I don't actually think. 346 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,720 I mean, I think individuals 347 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,080 have a mission driven 348 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,080 career or not. 349 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,480 And for those in food 350 00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:01,080 studies, you know, I would urge attention to the social justice 351 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:07,080 and environmental issues in how food is produced and distributed and consumed. 352 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,200 I think the, 353 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,200 the tenants of the Good Food Purchasing 354 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,920 Project, where 355 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:20,480 communities and increasingly states are being urged 356 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,600 to pay attention to the valued workforce. 357 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,760 What, what people who work not only in, in, farming 358 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,200 but also in food distribution, the truck drivers and the warehouse 359 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,760 operators and the, the people working in grocery stores and all of those people 360 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,840 that we suddenly realized were local heroes during the pandemic. 361 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,200 So paying attention 362 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,520 to the valued workforce force, both in terms of wages 363 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,680 and work conditions and which are really, 364 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,680 shocking in many food production plants, 365 00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:01,800 one of the things I did 366 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,920 in my Kellogg Fellowship was go to a chicken 367 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,320 packet packing, 368 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:09,760 factory, 369 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,760 where, I mean, I don't know what else to call it. 370 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,600 Where the chickens came in live in crates. 371 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,440 And the first job was to pick them up by their, 372 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,640 legs and attach them to an overhead conveyor. 373 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,560 So they dangled and then put them, then kill them and pluck them. 374 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,800 And and it was the most awful working 375 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,960 conditions I've ever seen up close and personal. 376 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,880 The personnel, it was hugely noisy. 377 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:42,240 It smelled terrible in the air, was permeated with death. 378 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,760 Anyway, so I guess I'm, 379 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,120 But perhaps not focusing enough on your point, 380 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:57,480 but the sustainability and climate change implications of how we grow food 381 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,040 and how we distribute it, and what kind of expectations 382 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,280 consumers are led to have for year round availability of, 383 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,520 anything you could ever want to cook with, 384 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,600 the impact on communities, 385 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,600 of the way food is grown and distributed, 386 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,280 the, the health impact. 387 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,120 So, I hope but that 388 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,160 food studies, 389 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,400 I mean, I think almost by its nature, 390 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,040 it can't avoid educating each other about these things. 391 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,680 It brings together a group of people whose shared concern 392 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,760 is, is food, and we learn from each other. 393 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,480 But I, I would I could see an organization having a mission statement. 394 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,520 I cannot see a field 395 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,520 having a mission statement. So. 396 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,000 As you think back to some of those 397 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,320 early ASFS experiences that you had, 398 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,320 is there anything memory wise that you'd like to make sure 399 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,280 that we know about, whether it was a presentation 400 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,080 that really moved you, a framing about food as a field 401 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,080 or a way of thinking about it that shaped your own research. 402 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,080 Anything you want us to capture there? 403 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:14,800 Okay. 404 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,400 Well, 405 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,080 I think the most memorable presentation for me is a 406 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,840 it wouldn't qualify as a really early one. 407 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,000 But, I 408 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000 went to a session on potluck dinners. 409 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,320 This was at the meeting that was held in Pittsburgh, 410 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,960 Pennsylvania at, 411 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,480 Oh, okay. 412 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,600 The, the university that when it was college 413 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,600 raised, Rachel Carson attended. 414 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:52,320 Okay. 415 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,360 But anyway, the speakers someone was giving a talk about potluck dinners, 416 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,160 and it was a really beautifully crafted 417 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,800 talk with using the details 418 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,840 of her experience with potluck 419 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,480 dinners in the small college town where she lived 420 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,560 to illustrate all sorts of emerging 421 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,560 theoretical issues in food studies. 422 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,920 And I went home and started a series 423 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,520 of potluck dinners among a group of 424 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:32,480 mostly elders in the community where I have a second home. 425 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,440 And it was it turned out to be kind of transformative for that community. 426 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,120 People got to know each other who 427 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,400 hadn't otherwise. 428 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,360 So and that that leads me to 429 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:47,880 one of the things that I think made ASFS 430 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,320 and Ag and Human Values the the two groups together 431 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,320 to get such rich and wonderful meetings 432 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,480 was because of the shared meals 433 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,480 and the field trips. 434 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,560 There there was just 435 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,440 we were people, 436 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,000 not just scholars in those meetings. 437 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,720 And so, my memories of the of the meetings 438 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,640 are very positive in a way that my meeting, my memories of the few, 439 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,320 American Sociological Association meetings I went to are not like that at all. 440 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,840 It's not about community. 441 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,600 And I think ASFS meetings really are 442 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,440 about the they are a community of scholars. 443 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:39,800 Okay. 444 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,040 So you've told us that you've been a part of ASFS from this 1986 445 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,560 early meeting very actively up until 2012 when you retired. 446 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,280 So, what was your involvement like over those decades of the various ways 447 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:51,720 you've been a part of the ASFS? 448 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,000 Well, I served on the 449 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,000 board for quite a few years. 450 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,680 I was at the meeting where we decided 451 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,720 to meet jointly with Ag and Human Values. 452 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,520 And, and I supported that and feel 453 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,520 that was a contribution. 454 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,880 I edited with, Kate Clancy and, 455 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,240 another scholar from a scholar 456 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,240 from Canada, a, 457 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,560 a edition of the journal, 458 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,560 that was focused on, on hunger. So. 459 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,200 I think those were 460 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,200 the main ways that I was involved. 461 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,480 I never took an editorial role in the journal myself, 462 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,440 and I never ran for an office other than board member. 463 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,920 City University really 464 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,680 did not have a lot of resources 465 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,920 to put into helping to nurture 466 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,320 academic organizations. 467 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,240 There wasn't release time to do that 468 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,240 sort of thing. 469 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,800 So you said how ASFS meetings 470 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,800 feel different than some other big field meetings? 471 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,760 But being a part of ASFS, were there other memberships and other organizations 472 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,240 that, stemmed from your involvement as an academic? 473 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,560 Ag and Human Values. 474 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,480 I was a member off and on and 475 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,040 not nearly 476 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,760 as many years as I was a member of ASFS. 477 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,600 And that that was about it. 478 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,240 And so we, 479 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,240 didn't have a big budget for travel. I, 480 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,880 so while I had my Kellogg fellowship, I had ample resources 481 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,280 to travel to meetings. 482 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,880 I went once to ARNOVA, 483 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,360 let's see, the Association for Research into Nonprofit 484 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,360 and Voluntary Organizations. 485 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,520 You know, that was certainly relevant for Sweet Charity. 486 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,720 So, I went once to their meetings and that that was a good experience, 487 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,720 but not enough to keep me going back. 488 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,960 You know, 489 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,720 this is when you lived in New York and you work in. 490 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,000 It's like a constant. 491 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,720 I mean, you know, there are 492 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,120 dozens of universities there. So, 493 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,360 you know, it is it's an incredible place to be. 494 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,600 I'm very jealous of that. 495 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,560 And so we mentioned earlier how food wasn't always popular 496 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,800 when you first started. 497 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,440 But now it is, right? 498 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,920 Like food's the culture. 499 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,760 It's pop culture is everywhere. 500 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,760 Do you think that's helped or, 501 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,960 has it helped to complicate the field or has it cultivated any further? 502 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:48,960 How do you see that relationship 503 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,320 between our pop culture and the Academy when it comes to food studies? 504 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,400 I think it's very positive. 505 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:55,800 Okay. 506 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,800 I think that the interest 507 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,320 in from pop culture 508 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,320 grows out of the fact that we will eat. 509 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,840 And as you know, we are all faced 510 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,440 with enormous numbers of choices about how and what to eat. 511 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,960 And increasingly, 512 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:18,760 people have 513 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,080 become aware that their choices have consequences 514 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,600 for other human beings and for animals. 515 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,720 So I guess I think the pop 516 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,720 culture sensibility, 517 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,080 is an asset to the field. 518 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:39,400 I'm sure there instances where work that we would regard as not up 519 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,440 to scholarly standards of accuracy or nuance, 520 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,440 may be done in pop culture, 521 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,240 creating issues, but on the whole, 522 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,520 I, I think it's, it's rose 523 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,160 out of the existential situation that we're all in. 524 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,440 And it's great, certainly in terms of 525 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,080 of engaging students at the undergraduate level. 526 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,040 It was great that they came in with, you know, agendas 527 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,640 and notions that they had not gotten by reading scholarly 528 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,520 text. 529 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,160 This is definitely true, that Food Studies has grown 530 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,880 and thrived as a field. And we've gotten to teach 531 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,880 lots of undergraduate classes in different departments. 532 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,200 But food studies hasn't grown infrastructurally, really well within 533 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,040 institutions to have full departments or, even full majors. 534 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,840 And you know, that many places. 535 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,920 And so what do you think about that of like, why hasn't food studies, 536 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,120 had more structural support within the academy? 537 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,080 Is it something to do with the academy, something to do with the broader culture? 538 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:48,880 Okay. 539 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,960 So I think it has a lot to do with the Academy. 540 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,320 I know that at Hunter, where I taught 541 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,360 pretty much my entire career, I spent one 542 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,360 sabbatical, 543 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,400 semester teaching at UC 544 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,720 Santa Cruz, which is about as far from Hunter College. 545 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,280 We had one tree that kind of grew up out of the well of where the, 546 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,040 it goes down into the subway. 547 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,400 And UC Santa Cruz is like a continuation of of the woods. 548 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,280 It was a sign on the, 549 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,600 the door of the building where my office was when I was there. 550 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,400 Mountain lion alert. 551 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,000 Because mountain lions would come down from the back country, 552 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,000 which really was continuous with the campus to, 553 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,800 to attack the deer that wandered around the campus. 554 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,160 So, it was a really great experience for me to be there. 555 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,480 But that's a little aside. 556 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,600 And there were quite a lot of scholars 557 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,320 there who were interested in food, but no food studies program. 558 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,920 But certainly at Hunter, there had been a proliferation of, 559 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,680 ethnic identity studies. 560 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,000 And I think the administration 561 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,320 just kind of reached its, cutoff 562 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:10,760 point. 563 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,960 I mean, I never made an active campaign to to create a food studies 564 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,360 program at Hunter because it worked fine for me to teach the courses. 565 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,760 I wanted to teach within the sociology department. 566 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,920 And I think there's a lot to be said for, 567 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,760 what do they call it, boring from within for, 568 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,080 for bringing your unique 569 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,760 interdisciplinary perspectives into a traditional discipline. 570 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,880 I think it wakes up your colleagues. 571 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,200 So I didn't have a problem 572 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,240 with the lack of food studies programs per se. 573 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,040 I, I don't think it's a discipline, and I don't think it should ever, 574 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,120 try to 575 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,480 think of itself as a as a discipline because it just has 576 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,880 too many different methods, central questions and what have you. 577 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,960 It's tempting to say 578 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,880 that our colleagues dismiss it 579 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,000 as too much of popular culture 580 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,080 or, you know, not not a serious thing. 581 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:23,880 But that's not my experience. 582 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,240 I have not felt that from from colleagues. 583 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,280 I spent a year as a dean, 584 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,920 and it gave me more sympathy for the 585 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,120 the decisions that academic administrators have to make, 586 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,080 because stopping a program 587 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,640 is always unpopular. 588 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:50,880 Okay? 589 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,880 Nobody ever wants to, to end the School 590 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,880 of Forestry or or, 591 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,120 whatever else. 592 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,240 Maybe that's a bad choice as an example. 593 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,240 But if things go out of fashion 594 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,800 and interdisciplinary programs 595 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,120 lose their appeal to students and the number of students dwindle, 596 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,000 but there's almost never enthusiasm 597 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,920 for cutting them, particularly among the faculty members, 598 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:29,520 who've invested their energy and resources in, in promoting that. 599 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,720 So, it's not, 600 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,480 you know, it's not a let a thousand flowers bloom situation. 601 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,200 It's not easy. 602 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,640 You're making life difficult for your successors. 603 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,400 If you say yes to too many interdisciplinary 604 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,400 programs. 605 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,840 You know, I think there's really useful insight. 606 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,960 So the next question is about the role of ASFS 607 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,760 in sort of the scholarly production of food studies. 608 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,120 What role should it play in producing monographs, journals, collections? 609 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,160 Articles. What about digital products? 610 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,160 What about public facing work? 611 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,800 Well, the first thing I want to say is, 612 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:19,200 I think ASFS was remarkably diligent and quite successful 613 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,320 in nurturing younger scholars in in creating, 614 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,960 places where they could publish, 615 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,720 our journal and, 616 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,720 some related journals. 617 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,840 In offering 618 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,640 financial assistance to attend conferences. 619 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:44,880 Awards of various. 620 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,880 So I mean, I think we did our job 621 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,720 of making it possible for young people 622 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,720 in traditional disciplines to join us 623 00:37:56,720 --> 00:38:00,560 in the interdisciplinary exploration then 624 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,920 and appreciation of, of food. 625 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,160 As far as products and, and formats, 626 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,240 I mean, I think collections of articles are, are good. 627 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,000 But I think the journal is excellent 628 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,680 and continues to be a useful thing. 629 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,120 I, I'm not a person who listens 630 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,360 to podcasts or watches a lot of videos. 631 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,400 It's just, I really like paper. 632 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,920 So, I'm not the best 633 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,760 person to consult about new directions. 634 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,040 We we ought to be moving. 635 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,840 And I trust the younger people whom we have invited in and, 636 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,360 help to make it possible for them to participate, 637 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,520 to take us in the new directions. 638 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,200 ASFS TikToks. 639 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:05,040 You spoke earlier about food's 640 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,080 three pillars that production, distribution, consumption, 641 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,360 as practices that are also like outside of traditional academic labor. 642 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,560 And so the question here is how is food studies scholarship work to integrate 643 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,840 academic research with the lived experience and labor 644 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,080 of food producing communities, and maybe what work is left 645 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,080 to integrate better? 646 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,440 Oh, well, I mean, I actually think 647 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,400 the field has done a fine job, has paid attention 648 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,200 to the labor of food production, 649 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,200 distribution and and consumption. 650 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,520 You know, I think of the Food Chain Workers 651 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:51,960 Alliance in the advocacy world as an organization 652 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,480 that has, made the connections along 653 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,160 from, from production through to at least, 654 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,120 the restaurant end of, of consumption. 655 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,000 And I know 656 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:11,200 at the CUNY Urban Food Policy Institute, which is based in the School 657 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:16,560 of Public Health at CUNY, where I begin working immediately after retiring 658 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:20,520 because we got a grant that we'd been trying for for years. 659 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,960 And we literally got it the week after I signed the papers to retire. 660 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,680 So too bad. 661 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,520 But in any case, we had a strong alliance 662 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,520 with the Food Chain Workers Alliance, 663 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,040 in both local focus and, and some of our national work. 664 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,080 I think, 665 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,240 I think the field of, of food studies has done 666 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:52,440 a good job of in doing work that 667 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,080 elucidates and, 668 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,080 calls attention to, 669 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:01,760 urgent 670 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,440 environmental concerns, health concerns and social justice 671 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,720 economic concerns. 672 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,280 So and I don't 673 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,720 I mean, we've certainly not left out climate change. 674 00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:16,880 We haven't left out 675 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,320 diet related health, but, 676 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,280 I mean, I think it's one of the, 677 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,800 the things to celebrate about the field 678 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,880 is that it has done a good job 679 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,600 of helping to connect 680 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,920 the the issues that arise. 681 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:42,320 So, our next set of questions 682 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,720 are thinking about ASFS and cultural, ethnic and class diversity. 683 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,360 And so the first question is thinking about how the field has diversified 684 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,360 so much of disciplines, topics, people, areas of the world. 685 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,120 Right? Like every thing we can think about. 686 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,120 So the question is, has the diversity of scholars involved in food studies 687 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,160 been outpaced by the scholarship in food studies? Why? 688 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,160 And should there be steps to address that? 689 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,840 Well, I think to an extent it has. 690 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,000 You know, I think the the scholarship is more diverse 691 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,600 than the pool of scholars or at least of scholars with 692 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,960 tenure track and tenured jobs in academia. 693 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,800 And I don't think that's our fault. 694 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,680 I, I don't think that people 695 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,160 are not getting tenure because they work in food studies. 696 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,640 And as long as they keep up their disciplinary 697 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,720 commitments. 698 00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:52,800 And I think there are some modest efforts 699 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,800 by the organization to, 700 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,240 to feature diversity or to encourage diversity. 701 00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,200 There's a, 702 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,280 a pedagogy 703 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,320 effort, 704 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,200 which, you know, 705 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,600 pedagogy is the pipeline to the future 706 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,920 professoriate. 707 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,480 So, I don't fault us, but I do think we need to continue 708 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:21,760 to pay attention to it. 709 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,520 And I think we need to not be, 710 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,280 intimidated by the current 711 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,400 opposition to DEI, 712 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,360 and we need to be voices within our universities 713 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:44,880 to preserve efforts to diversify the, the, 714 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,000 core of people 715 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,440 who hold these very wonderful, very privileged jobs. 716 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,240 You spoke earlier about how you felt like, ASFS has done a good job of bringing 717 00:43:57,240 --> 00:44:01,400 in younger scholars, passing on sort of the generational wisdom of the field. 718 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,320 We've talked about pedagogy and teaching, to the diversity 719 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,400 of the students in our classrooms, given their lives and their backgrounds. 720 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,360 Is there anything else that you can think of that ASFS has done to encourage 721 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,360 diversification of its membership and its leadership? 722 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:18,720 Interpreting diversity there in every possible way we can. 723 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:24,840 I went to the meeting last summer in Syracuse. 724 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,280 I was in town for an another meeting of the for the Right 725 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,360 to Food Community of Practice was having a national summit, 726 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,120 which was planned on purpose to be 727 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,080 adjacent to the ASFS meeting. 728 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,800 And I saw a more 729 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,800 diverse group of scholars 730 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,320 then I 731 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,440 remembered from some of the I retired in 2012. 732 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,360 So it had been, you know, a good it been a dozen years. 733 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,160 And, you know, you haven't asked, but 734 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,520 the reason I seldom went to meetings 735 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,680 after I retired was because I didn't have travel funds. And, 736 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,920 it it never seemed a priority to go. 737 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,400 I went, 738 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:22,800 to the one in Pittsburgh 739 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,800 because they invited me and put me up. 740 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,840 So, so I think it was a more diverse 741 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,280 and visibly a more diverse group. 742 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,280 But I also think DEI as a 743 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,640 major issue has been in that interim, I mean, post 744 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,760 George Floyd to to some extent, and I wasn't active. 745 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,480 So, I have to say, I think I don't know. 746 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,400 It's still interesting that it felt different when you returned. 747 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,880 Like, that's still really interesting. 748 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,520 Something you talked about is, the emergence of food studies 749 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,600 as a field emerge at a lot of these other fields. 750 00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:10,360 I'm sorry, these other studies' fields, when we think about, different identities 751 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,400 from cultural studies about women's and gender 752 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,800 studies, African-American studies, East Asian studies, Latinx studies. 753 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,160 So to what extent do you think ASFS as an organization 754 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,040 and food studies as a field is also a part of that story? 755 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,080 Whether it's about the way we study things or maybe some of what 756 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,120 we talked about, how we fit into institutions and not. 757 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,440 That's an interesting question. 758 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,760 I definitely think the idea is contagious, 759 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,160 that you can choose a field 760 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,600 and or choose an area of interest 761 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,000 and make it an interdisciplinary field. 762 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,480 There were very few 763 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,440 when I was an undergraduate student in the mid 1960s. 764 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,360 I mean, there were departments and they were traditional disciplines, 765 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,360 and there were very few, 766 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,240 interdisciplinary 767 00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:10,720 activities even. 768 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,720 So, I think the idea it has 769 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,760 has been somewhat contagious. 770 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,000 And I think it's a good thing 771 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,760 because in one sense, 772 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,760 the old disciplines are, 773 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,760 you know, maybe a little 774 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,320 ossified. 775 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,280 Less flexible. 776 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,880 Less innovative than interdisciplinary programs. 777 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,240 So, yeah, I think that that the 778 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,640 we did participate in that 779 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,320 the term proliferation comes to mind, which doesn't quite, 780 00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,880 have the flavor that, I mean, but the, the. 781 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,520 The expression of 782 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,000 cross-disciplinary interests 783 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,920 and the recognition of the value of meeting and talking to 784 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,920 and reading the work of people from other disciplines. 785 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,120 And I think we probably contributed 786 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,160 contributed to 787 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,160 this, expansion as well. 788 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:29,240 So we're also 789 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:32,240 in a moment of change, within food studies and within, 790 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:36,160 ASFS as we think about, a sort of changing of the guard. 791 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,960 And so is there anything that you're seeing from, newer scholars, 792 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:44,040 younger scholars, that you find gaining traction 793 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,040 and might shape the future direction of ASFS? 794 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,320 I don't think, I'm competent 795 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,240 to to comment on that. 796 00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:01,400 Because I think it would be really misleading to imply 797 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,040 that I have kept up with the journals since I retired. 798 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,080 I, I continue to be active in advocacy, 799 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,080 but not so much as a scholar. 800 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:17,480 Pretty much. 801 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,240 I mean, I did some work the last couple of years 802 00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:23,240 with a colleague in Canada, 803 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,120 about trying to 804 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,000 to help to shape school food programs as they emerge. 805 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,000 There Canadian have not traditionally had them. 806 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,360 But my work is is advocacy driven. 807 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:37,480 And so. 808 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:42,000 Yeah, but I do have a warning or a caveat, 809 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,840 which is, 810 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,520 I find 811 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,080 when I do pick up 812 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,080 scholarly articles by younger scholars, 813 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,880 I find a lot of the language off putting, 814 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,600 I worked very hard 815 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:07,000 when I wrote, and I still work very hard when I write to make sure 816 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,000 that what I write is accessible. 817 00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:15,120 And I don't like it 818 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,720 when, when people evolve a whole new language 819 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:25,120 to to say things that I think could be said in plain English. 820 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,200 I share that critique for sure. 821 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,200 And so it's okay if these are things 822 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,280 that you're not as aware of in the last few years, but thinking about, 823 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,080 how ASFS is endeavored to address the impact, 824 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,440 that issues of culture, ethnic and class diversity bring to the field. 825 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,000 They're thinking about, you know, the cost of membership, 826 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,240 the themes of the conferences, what the call for papers look like, 827 00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:52,800 the locations, 828 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,920 all of these sort of logistics of how we run ourselves and how that's influenced 829 00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,920 what we're able to do and the people we do it with. 830 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:01,000 Yeah. 831 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,240 And I think, you know, my impression is that they've done a pretty good job. 832 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:07,960 You know, 833 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:12,240 in the context of the kind of inequality we have in the United States now, 834 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:17,120 which is at an outrageous level, is historically, 835 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:19,560 I believe we are now 836 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,560 more unequal than we were in the Roaring 20s. 837 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,000 And literally three people own as much wealth 838 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,720 as the bottom half of our population. 839 00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:32,720 So, in that context, 840 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,080 there's no way to make the benefits of 841 00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,400 our organization readily available to, to 842 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,360 just as there's no 843 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:51,320 cure or way to open the doors to becoming a, a professor. 844 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,600 We have pipeline programs and programs. 845 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,480 We we try 846 00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:58,880 the City University of New York 847 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,880 probably tries harder than most. 848 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,320 But if we don't confront the underlying inequality, 849 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,040 we won't get very far. 850 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,080 So, as you think about the strengths and weaknesses of ASFS 851 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,400 to be a platform for exactly that kind of accessibility, 852 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,840 what do you think those are our strengths and our weaknesses there? 853 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,840 Well, I go back to those experiences I had in undergraduate teaching, 854 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,880 often started the course at the beginning of the year by saying, 855 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,440 what did you have for breakfast? 856 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:40,680 And we went around the circle, and then we kind of interrogated it and 857 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,040 tried to figure out explanations for why 858 00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,520 we were eating, what we were eating, and we were off to a good start. 859 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:49,680 And I think 860 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,840 that same existential characteristic 861 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,720 that we all eat, most of us every day, 862 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,840 and we care about what we eat. 863 00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:08,560 Puts us in a position to empower people 864 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,760 to claim their own expertise 865 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,560 and then seek additional expertise to 866 00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,680 expand it to pursue, 867 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,520 topics that that grow out of their interest. 868 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,480 I think about all the students I've had who had worked in a community garden 869 00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:34,320 at some point in high school or summers or 870 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,320 what have you, and 871 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,600 to 872 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,440 it's just because eating is so central to human activity, 873 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,080 it creates a platform. 874 00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:52,080 It it creates a doorway that can be pretty wide open. 875 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,560 So I think we need to build on that, 876 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,560 and I think we have built on it. 877 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,120 One of the ways we've been trying to build 878 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:08,280 is grappling with the fact of, are we an institution primarily 879 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,840 for North American scholars or are we an international organization? 880 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,160 And the efforts it takes to, try and encourage and support 881 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,520 presentations from scholars from all over the world? 882 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,400 What are your thoughts about ASFS 883 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,400 when it comes to its national identity? 884 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,040 And its efforts to be an international organization? 885 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,160 Right. 886 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,160 Well. 887 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,680 I'm torn because 888 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,040 realistically, very few institutions 889 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,800 these days have the resources to, 890 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,120 for international travel. 891 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,360 I would I think it's great that we have met in Canada. 892 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,160 And perhaps we could meet in Mexico. 893 00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,840 But I wouldn't support a resolution 894 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,840 to have our next meeting in Paris. 895 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:10,960 I just think that aggravates the 896 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,200 the class related barriers to participation. 897 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,000 I don't want to exclude 898 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,720 any scholars from other countries 899 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,640 who are interested in participating, 900 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,240 but mostly I think they should go home and 901 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,760 and form their own. 902 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,520 You know, Nordic food 903 00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:44,240 experience. 904 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,800 Clusters of of areas 905 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,080 where travel for conferences is feasible. 906 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,560 I know we could do conferences on Zoom. 907 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,040 At the CUNY Urban Food Policy Institute, 908 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:02,480 we have been able to bring scholars 909 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:07,040 from all around the world to talk to a primarily New York 910 00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:12,240 audience via the magic of Zoom, where we could no way 911 00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:16,560 afford to bring them here in an airplane and put them up in New York City. 912 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:18,840 And I 913 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,960 think it's appropriate for that kind of activity, 914 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,960 but I would hate to see ASFS 915 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,400 lose the face to face meetings. 916 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,840 I think that the friendships that are created 917 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,720 and the relationships and the shared experiences 918 00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:40,200 on the field trips and the shared meals are really important. 919 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,400 And we're certainly important to me and my years of regular participation. 920 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,400 And, you know, yes, ASFS has a great capacity 921 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,160 for enjoying the our meetings were fun. 922 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,800 They were much more fun than than other academic meetings I attended. 923 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,560 Joyful really in in many cases. 924 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,560 And I think it's the joy of food. 925 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,400 So I don't, 926 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,400 imagine an ASFS 927 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:18,480 that would be equally representative 928 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,480 of other regions of the world. 929 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,040 And I, I don't 930 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,280 and if we have the kind of recession 931 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,320 that I wake up in the middle of the night worrying about, 932 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,360 we won't any of us have 933 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,440 the resources to to travel abroad 934 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,440 for meetings or bring people here. 935 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,520 So, maybe it's a pessimism of the moment. 936 00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,480 But I think that there's plenty to do 937 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,440 to understand and learn from. 938 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,280 And the there 939 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,320 are so many hyphenated Americans, 940 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,560 who bring food cultures 941 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,560 with all kinds of wisdom embedded in them 942 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,480 that I don't think we need to 943 00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:12,880 have, you know, UN style 944 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,200 meetings with simultaneous interpretation 945 00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,200 for 90 languages to, 946 00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:22,880 to benefit from the the wisdom of other food cultures. 947 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,240 So it maybe 948 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,400 I'm showing my age because I'm tireder 949 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,400 than I used to be. 950 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,080 But I, I don't see us needing to be a global 951 00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,760 organization. 952 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,040 It's completely fair to feel pessimistic in this particular moment, 953 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,680 but in our last questions, we get to shift to an optimistic 954 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,280 sort of hope for the future as we think about the next 40 years 955 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,520 for food studies as a field and for ASFS, 956 00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:01,320 what are your hopes for food studies and for the for ASFS in the next 40? 957 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,160 Well, I hope that 958 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,280 the organization will pay more attention to inequality, 959 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:15,320 to the underlying inequality of wealth and income. 960 00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,560 That is the context. 961 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:21,640 You know, now, I'm you know, I came from a department of sociology. 962 00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,480 So this is just this is in a sense, it's 963 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,920 a sociologist saying pay attention to the the core issue. 964 00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,800 But I 965 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,600 am concerned about our nation 966 00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:41,160 and we, I think, are paying the price 967 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,000 for having not paid enough attention to inequality, 968 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,840 not having cared enough, back when I was giving Sweet Charity talks, 969 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:55,120 I used to give a talk or a part of my talk about 970 00:59:56,200 --> 01:00:00,000 the people who care about poor people and are therefore 971 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,040 volunteering in soup kitchens and food pantries and conducting food drives. 972 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,600 And when have you needing to pay more attention to what was happening 973 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,280 at the top of the income and wealth distribution? 974 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:13,480 Because 975 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,760 we were moving rapidly in the wrong direction 976 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,160 and more and more concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. 977 01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:25,880 And obviously, I didn't say it long enough and loud enough 978 01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:30,360 and what have you to have any impact, or at least much impact. 979 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,600 But I would like to see our field 980 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,600 pay more attention to to inequality. 981 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,040 And I think climate change is another 982 01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,760 big issue that we cannot pay too much attention to. 983 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:49,160 Right. 984 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:52,160 I think, 985 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:54,840 I mean, it's clear 986 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,640 that where food is grown and how food is grown 987 01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,760 is changing and will have to change. 988 01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:08,880 Looking out the back window here at a cherry tree that normally blooms on 989 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,920 my husband's birthday, April 12th, 990 01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,920 and is now starting to bloom today. 991 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,880 That's, you know, 992 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,880 I mean, that's within the last 3 or 4 years. 993 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,120 So I think the signs are all around us 994 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,760 that we're on a trajectory where there will be massive 995 01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,920 changes in food systems 996 01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:37,280 and whether we can adapt readily enough quickly enough. 997 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,120 I'm not convinced. 998 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,800 And I also think that there are going to be 999 01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,800 massive relocations of human population. 1000 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,880 And we are so unready as a society 1001 01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:56,920 to welcome the numbers of people that we're going. 1002 01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,920 I mean, we are, for the time being, 1003 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,520 in a belt of the earth that that, is still habitable. 1004 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:07,600 We'll see. 1005 01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,600 So, you know, 1006 01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,520 I just hope that we're doing enough of that work 1007 01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,480 in in the work of food studies. 1008 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:22,720 So, as you thought 1009 01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:26,480 about preparing for this and reflecting on the 40 years of ASFS, 1010 01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,600 are there any memories, any stories that we haven't talked about that 1011 01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:32,600 we should make sure we cover today? 1012 01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,400 Well, memories is a funny thing. 1013 01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,880 And I think a lot of my 1014 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,400 ASFS conference memories are, are merged 1015 01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:54,600 into this great appreciation for, as I say, the field trips. 1016 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,720 I remember a field trip from, 1017 01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,720 the session that was held it at Penn State 1018 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:04,920 out into the valley where the very traditional Mennonites 1019 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,480 are using very traditional farming practices 1020 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,680 and not letting their daughters go beyond high school 1021 01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,920 if that and 1022 01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,880 both the, the charm 1023 01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,680 of seeing the old 1024 01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:28,920 methods of farming that we need to pay more attention to 1025 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:32,680 and the discomfort I felt 1026 01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:37,440 with as a, as a woman and a feminist with these young girls 1027 01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,320 whose horizons were being so deeply foreclosed. 1028 01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,760 And I think a lot of the field trips that I went on 1029 01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,040 with ASFS annual meetings were, 1030 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,480 you know, profoundly thought provoking. 1031 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,680 They they weren't just interesting. 1032 01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:56,480 Oh, it's interesting. 1033 01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,480 They they were, 1034 01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,640 deeply engaging. And, 1035 01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,400 I, as I say, 1036 01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,400 the different meetings are kind of merged together, 1037 01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:12,240 but that's one of the things that that I recall is that 1038 01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,960 I don't think I ever went to a field trip 1039 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,360 that was, I felt was a waste of time. 1040 01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:20,040 Yeah. 1041 01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:24,200 They were really so well planned, well organized. 1042 01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:26,760 And I'm grateful to the people who did that work. 1043 01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,960 It's a lot of work, as you probably know, to 1044 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,360 be the host institution for a conference like this. 1045 01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:37,400 And I owe a debt of gratitude to the people who were willing to 1046 01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,680 to take that on. 1047 01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:43,600 No. Absolutely. 1048 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,440 So much gratitude for that. 1049 01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,320 We have seven minutes of free time left. 1050 01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:53,040 Is there anything else, as you think about what makes ASFS special, 1051 01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,800 the role it's played in your career, in your scholarship, the community 1052 01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,640 it's build, anything else? We want to make sure we cover? 1053 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,880 Well, I was I was very grateful to have, 1054 01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,200 Free for All recognized as a book of the year. 1055 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:13,440 It, you know, school food 1056 01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,440 is one of those topics that, 1057 01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,360 doesn't sound like, 1058 01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:22,640 cutting edge scholarship 1059 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,200 when you say you're studying school food, 1060 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,880 it's kind of how people feel about, you know, it's like the weather. 1061 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,880 Everybody complains about it, but nobody can do anything about it. 1062 01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:38,040 Only actually, a great deal has been happening to improve school food. 1063 01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:40,360 But I, 1064 01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:43,360 I'm not. 1065 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,120 On the whole, 1066 01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:51,240 a big fan of awards, and I've never really wanted 1067 01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,760 to put my effort into to creating them or perpetuating them, 1068 01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,880 but I was very glad for that, both because it was great for me personally 1069 01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:03,840 and because it validated the the topic. 1070 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,400 And maybe a lot of ASFS 1071 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,920 folks have had the experience 1072 01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,280 of feeling their topic validated 1073 01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,120 in our community in a way that perhaps it wasn't 1074 01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,840 by the the more traditional scholars in their disciplines. 1075 01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,440 So I think ASFS 1076 01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:33,760 has made good use, effective use, responsible 1077 01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,080 use of the techniques 1078 01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,080 that exist for encouraging scholarship. 1079 01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,320 So, I think the student paper awards 1080 01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:48,640 are a great thing to and for some students, it's 1081 01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,640 the first time they ever considered an academic career. 1082 01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,280 And the the 1083 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,840 journal has been usually, 1084 01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,320 as far as I could see, 1085 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:06,360 willing to help scholars 1086 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,360 improve their, their work and their writing. 1087 01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:12,840 So I, I think we've, we've done 1088 01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,840 a pretty good job of, 1089 01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,520 nurturing 1090 01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,160 younger scholars as they come along and, 1091 01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,320 helping mid-career and established scholars 1092 01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,800 find the right audiences for their work 1093 01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,560 and I you know, I don't 1094 01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:35,760 it sounds like kind of collectively 1095 01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:40,200 self-congratulatory, but I do think we need to celebrate 1096 01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:44,040 the achievements, celebrate what we've done 1097 01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:45,800 well. 1098 01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,040 We have come a long way. 1099 01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:53,880 You you asked about milestones, and I think about the the first New York City 1100 01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:57,280 meeting at NYU pretty early 1101 01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,280 in the organization's evolution. 1102 01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,160 And again, the Annie Hauck-Lawson 1103 01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,760 organized a whole bunch of field trips, 1104 01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:13,200 that were absolutely terrific, for showing 1105 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:18,040 visiting scholars from other areas, some of the, the 1106 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,120 a different kind of diversity of New York. 1107 01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,240 But that was also a meeting where 1108 01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,240 because so many people 1109 01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,240 studying and writing about food 1110 01:08:30,480 --> 01:08:33,840 were based in New York, that I think the organization 1111 01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,520 probably experienced a surge in membership. 1112 01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:42,320 So I'm grateful to the Food Studies program at NYU 1113 01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:46,440 for giving the organization the kind of boost that at that point. 1114 01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:50,400 Alright 1115 01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,040 I've so enjoyed getting to talk with you today 1116 01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,560 and to hear your memories and your stories, 1117 01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:58,560 thinking about ASFS and this field of food studies. 1118 01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:03,560 And so I hope you know how influential you've been in many of our educations, 1119 01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,240 and how we think about what food is and why it matters, 1120 01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,040 and that focus on inequality and that we should 1121 01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:11,880 all be focused on policy and not just analyzing texts and, you know, 1122 01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,440 doing armchair, you know, faculty work, academic work in the mind. 1123 01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:16,400 But so 1124 01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,400 thank you so much for this opportunity to get to speak with you today. 1125 01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:20,480 Thank you.