1 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:30,840 All right. 2 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,640 So, this interview is going to be between 3 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Vanessa Castañeda and Alice Julier. 4 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,360 Today is May 12th, 5 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,760 2025, 6 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,400 approximately around 4:00 in the afternoon. 7 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,560 I am located in my office here in North Carolina, 8 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,840 and Alice is in her home in, Pittsburgh. 9 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,720 And so we're going to go ahead and get started. 10 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:56,880 I'm very excited. 11 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,880 I'm really looking forward to this. Me, too. 12 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,200 Yes. Thank you so much, Alice, for agreeing to do this. 13 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,800 So, the Association for the Study of Food and Society was founded 14 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,400 in 1985 to promote the interdisciplinary study of food 15 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,600 and society as part of its 40th anniversary. 16 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,000 We wanted to chronicle the history of ASFS 17 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,920 as an organization and reflect on its role in the broader field of food studies. 18 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:25,440 As part of this effort, 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,080 we are conducting a series of video interviews with esteemed individuals 20 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,560 like yourself, Alice, to gather insights about ASFS's past, present, and future. 21 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,120 So again, thank you so much for agreeing to do this. 22 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,520 I'm really excited. I'm looking forward to this. 23 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,960 And so I guess I'll just start off just you know, can you just talk 24 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:44,840 a little bit about yourself? 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:46,800 Where are you from? What did you study? 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,360 You know, what are your interests? 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:50,440 Anything you'd like to share? 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:51,480 I'm. I'm at the. 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,480 I guess I would say the far end of my career at this point. 30 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,560 I, I am a sociologist by training. 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,320 I, actually have a degree in sociology and art from Brandeis 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,480 and then went, I did a bunch of other things 33 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,480 and then went and got my doctorate at UMass Amherst, 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,600 and, in sociology and then, 35 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,560 taught at Smith College for a number of years. 36 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:25,800 And, eventually, came to Pittsburgh, where I have been for the last 15 years. 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,640 I was hired to create, a food studies 38 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:32,640 program for a School of Sustainability and the Environment. 39 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,360 The they have a specific campus that they acquired that is, 40 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,200 has been, a living learning laboratory with a farm 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,720 and culinary spaces and environmental science. So. 42 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,560 And I have been in that role as program director for 15 years. 43 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:57,360 And then I also started a center called the Center for Regional Agriculture, 44 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,960 Food, and Transformation. CRAFT. Which is, sort of a 45 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,240 I don't know, an applied wing of what we do. 46 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,640 So, I've been doing that for a while. 47 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:10,320 I my background, my interests. 48 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:15,720 I actually my real my backpack is medical sociology, feminist health. 49 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,560 I kind of came into this as an activist 50 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,720 in reproductive justice. 51 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,520 And, did a lot of work on collectives and 52 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,320 feminist health collaboratives. 53 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,800 Both in my undergraduate and, and my graduate. I, 54 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,000 wrote a lot about the Boston Women's Health Book Collective, which is the group 55 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,560 that wrote Our Bodies Ourselves. 56 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,240 And I interned with them, work with them, and then did 57 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,520 my Masters at UMass in that in, in feminist health, 58 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,080 similar stuff and then got really tired of it and 59 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,120 well, particularly because of the theories of social movements 60 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:03,560 and social activism in the mid, you know, 1990's were very theoretical. 61 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,880 And then, you know, the sort of action activist piece 62 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,000 became very divorced from it. 63 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:14,400 And so I ended up writing a dissertation about food, about 64 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,480 who people eat with and, and really thinking about. 65 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,440 And this has been my interest ever since, which is the political 66 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,240 economy of everyday life that I'm really interested in how, 67 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:28,640 differences, 68 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,840 commonalities, you know, sort of play out in realms 69 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,840 that are outside of but connected to family and work. 70 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,880 And in particular, written 71 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,920 about hospitality, mostly domestic hospitality. 72 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,640 And then 73 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,800 sort of looking at family in that. 74 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,520 Right, looking at other kinds of social relations. 75 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,600 I'm really interested in questions of, you know, kind of the intersectionality 76 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,760 of is particularly around around race 77 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,760 and gender in those areas. 78 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,240 And since then 79 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,080 I have actually written a lot about food studies because I've 80 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:11,920 started a program and I've helped 81 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,120 other people start programs, and I've taught in programs. 82 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,120 And so, 83 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:19,840 really thinking about kind of 84 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:25,240 and actually very connected to my history with ASFS, really thinking about 85 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,880 how is it that, the way we think about food 86 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,120 could more centrally emphasize, 87 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,920 questions of inequality in that regard. 88 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,920 And to me, to me, really, really, really concerned with that. 89 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,920 So, that's something I've written about a lot. 90 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,360 And now I'm about to 91 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,360 I have co-edited a book called Food and Culture: A Reader 92 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,800 before, with a couple of anthropologists who might be among the interviewees. 93 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,120 And now I'm working on it with, 94 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,440 two really phenomenal colleagues and scholars, 95 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,320 Ashanté Reese and Hiʻilei Hobart. 96 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,960 Right. So, we are we are working on that together. 97 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,200 And that, to me is a really exciting thing, like 98 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,240 how it's so relevant to this, how can we sort of blow up what this 99 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,240 has looked like and then reconfigure it in a new way? 100 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:21,840 Yeah. 101 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:24,480 So that's, that's kind of where I'm at. 102 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,160 Well, that is very exciting. 103 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,000 I can't wait for this new edition to come out. 104 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,080 Me too I've 105 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,800 Yeah, I've, I've obviously read previous editions, but this is so 106 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:36,400 I had no idea that you were editing this with, 107 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,880 Ashanté Reese, whose work I really admire. 108 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,160 So this. Yeah. Amazing. 109 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:44,080 I just wanted to ask a little bit about, 110 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,160 you know, you mentioned that you really studied 111 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,240 a lot of kind of medical feminist sociology, 112 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,920 and you did a lot of work with these kinds of activists, feminist groups. 113 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:58,680 Were you having any conversations or just any questions about food then, 114 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:04,320 or was food, something that really became this new endeavor for you? 115 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:04,800 Yeah. 116 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,720 Once you just got tired of what you were doing. 117 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,680 You know. It's it's a little bit of both. 118 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,000 I think that there were some certainly, certainly some biographical things 119 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,440 that were happening for me, at that time as a graduate student. 120 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,320 But then also, there's this, there's 121 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,160 this quote that there's a very famous book came out at the time 122 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,320 called The Black Women's Health Book, and it's an edited volume that looks 123 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,720 really, really begins to speak about Black women's kind of relationship and place 124 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,520 in, in, in terms of the mainstream medical system. 125 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,720 And in one of the pieces, 126 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,520 the author is, 127 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,880 she's a practitioner and she's talks about how she is going into, 128 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,760 black communities and meeting with women to talk about, you know, 129 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,800 like kind of community health around, you know, issues 130 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,400 that are sort of specific health issues and risks for Black women. 131 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,880 And then one of the women is quoted as saying, you know, I know all these things. 132 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,800 I know what to do for my hypertension. 133 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,320 I know what to do for diabetes. 134 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,920 But until you can offer me something else, you know, I'm I'm going to sit down. 135 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,680 I'm going to cook myself up a pot of food. 136 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,760 And until you come up with something better that actually works for me 137 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:18,200 and fits in my life. 138 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,080 And that was so profound, to me. 139 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,800 Because because of how much that actually, 140 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,520 I think really speaks to 141 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,520 the heart of what I think feminist kind of collective taking sovereignty, 142 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,920 taking ownership over your your health and health care 143 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,240 and in particular, 144 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,120 I think around, emergent 145 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,880 and historical perspectives on Black, Black women and self care. 146 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,320 And so that that was a big thing. 147 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,320 And that that got me thinking. 148 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:52,880 Excuse me. 149 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,520 And then there just have been a bunch 150 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,520 of different things, you know, one, as we were unionizing, 151 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,760 graduate students at UMass at the time 152 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,760 and, there's nothing like unionizing to make 153 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,800 bring people together around, you know, I don't know, potlucks, dinner parties. 154 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,640 Right. Like, like social organizing around food. 155 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,360 And there were lots of conversations and debates, particularly 156 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,080 because I was in a mostly LGBTQ community organizing. 157 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,840 And so, you know, we had a lot of fights about what what were the best ways 158 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:25,800 to get together and eat. 159 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,400 And then I also, 160 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,400 used to go watch my, 161 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,720 my now spouse, play pickup basketball. 162 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,720 And he was often, 163 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,320 the only white player in a, in a Black space. 164 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,840 And, and they had these parties afterwards a lot that were like, oh, 165 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,840 after the old versus new young, you'd have a barbecue. 166 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,200 And and to me, food was my entry point into being part 167 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,280 of that community, being part of that participating in it. 168 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:03,920 And so I was actually mostly fascinated with the informality of pickup 169 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,080 basketball and like how you can fit in and how you couldn't. 170 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:08,480 And then, you know, what did that mean? 171 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,480 And so it kind of these three things just 172 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,840 and the fact that, like, I did not realize how food obsessed, 173 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:20,120 the people in my life and like, later I was like, oh, I grow stuff too. Like you know 174 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,120 what I mean, so like, 175 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,080 it was all those pieces kind of, kind of led me in a particular direction. 176 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:28,600 So and it 177 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:33,120 and to me, it's been amazing that, of course, now you can't think about food 178 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,080 without thinking about social movements, you know, and you can't you, you know, 179 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,800 the amount of work and knowledge and kind of history that we have around 180 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,480 in particular, you know, Black Americans participation 181 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,480 in the construction of the cuisine, the culture. 182 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,520 So, it's kind of like it's like a funny go around for me, 183 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,680 like things that I cared about in this really weird, nascent way. 184 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,640 And I have to say, the other thing that happened is, 185 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,640 I was wandering around in a building at UMass. 186 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,920 I taught in the writing program for a long time, even though I was in 187 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,160 sociology, and there was this woman named Arlene Avakian, who, 188 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,760 worked in, in the Gender and Women's Studies program, 189 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,680 and she stopped me one day, and I was a little intimidated by her, to be honest. 190 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,400 And, and she said, I hear you're working on food. 191 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,720 She said, I'm writing a book, and everyone's telling you 192 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,720 know disparaging it, that it's a cookbook. And 193 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,000 and Arlene was this big 194 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,520 The first person I ever knew who taught about whiteness. 195 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,280 You know, she really kind of this amazing critical scholar. 196 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,720 And so, I don't know, we started hanging out together 197 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,880 when we were both working on these things. 198 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,800 And, she has been my mentor and my, 199 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,160 academic parent and heart ever since. 200 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,080 And her work really, you know, kind of carried me into this space. So 201 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,440 Yeah. 202 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,080 Wow. Well, that's so beautiful. 203 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:04,360 Especially just kind of sharing about your own, experience with mentorship 204 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,280 and the way that, like, all of this has coalesced in the intellectual 205 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,240 part of your life and the very personal and the very social. 206 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,560 So, yeah, thank you for all of that. 207 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,440 And just thinking about kind of food studies more broadly, 208 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,400 you mentioned that, pardon me that you were hired at Chatham. 209 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,080 Is that how you pronounce it? Yeah. 210 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,560 To start a food studies program. 211 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:30,840 So, you know what was that like? And. 212 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:32,280 Yeah. 213 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:32,880 How do you 214 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,960 also kind of define or see food studies, as a field? 215 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,880 And I would say that like, so that was 2009 216 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:46,680 when I, when I was hired, and I would say up until that point, 217 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,520 I really called myself like a sociologist 218 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,680 who also taught about food. 219 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:56,400 Right. And, 220 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:57,680 and I really did 221 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:00,680 not see food studies as a thing. 222 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,320 I was invested in other things that I would call a field. 223 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:04,600 Right. 224 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,920 These, these, you know, not disciplines, but fields like gender studies. 225 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,520 And so that was meaningful and interesting to me. 226 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,600 But I, you know, but it's like it was hard for me to claim it, right? 227 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,720 As, like as, like my identity, especially because, 228 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,080 I was trained as a sociologist 229 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,600 through a lot of interdisciplinary perspectives, 230 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,920 like my training as a sociologist, even even after 231 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,880 I got to a very rigid quantitative graduate program, 232 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,520 was very much spent in history classrooms. 233 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,600 And as I said, I was a writing specialist and teacher. 234 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,840 And so, like, you know, my and the people at Brandeis, 235 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,840 they were like, read this novel, you know, I mean, so, 236 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,400 you know, so, so I wasn't quite ready 237 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,400 to claim this field, 238 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,200 and, and to be fair, most of the people who had kind 239 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:03,000 of nurtured me into ASFS were sociologists as well. 240 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,320 And so there was a sort of 241 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,400 bias unspoken kind of, 242 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,880 shared perspective. But, 243 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:13,520 at the time 244 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,440 I was hired at Chatham and I was also at the same time, 245 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,680 I was a finalist for the gastronomy director 246 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,880 at BU. 247 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,440 And, and I kind of desperately wanted to go back to New England, too. 248 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,200 So, it was like it was really leaning in that direction. 249 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,640 But I walked around the, the farm, the campus that we have 250 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,800 and like was such a such a gorgeous opportunity, right. 251 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,280 You know, I mean, for someone to give me this opportunity to build a thing. 252 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,920 And so, honest to God, I went, I went to ASFS, 253 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,640 to the meeting that year. 254 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,280 Because I had like six months to develop the program, 255 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,880 and I started following around all my friends in the Ag Food 256 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,880 and Human Value side, like the food systems people. 257 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,760 And I'm like, what are food systems like? 258 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,160 What are they like? How do you teach them? What is this? 259 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,200 You know, I just sort of like started pestering them, 260 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,080 you know, Gil Gillespie put up with me. 261 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:10,760 He's real sweet and wonderful. 262 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,080 And he and I actually ended up writing 263 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,960 this conversational article together about what food systems are, 264 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,560 because he also was a rural sociologist, 265 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,560 but he came at it in really interesting ways. And, 266 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,080 and so, you know, I've been hanging around these people 267 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,200 for quite a while already, but I was like, oh, I don't really, you know, like, 268 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,680 if I'm going to build a program, I want it to, to encompass these parts. 269 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,280 I want to bridge the divide between production and consumption. 270 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,800 I want us to think about agriculture and food in the same conversation. 271 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,680 And that really wasn't happening in these academic spaces. 272 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,920 And, and at as much as it is now, I think and there's still those divides. 273 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,840 But so, I followed these guys around. 274 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,440 I took lots of notes. 275 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,440 I pestered them through this whole conference. 276 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,760 And then I traveled around a little bit and looked at different places 277 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:03,480 and programs. 278 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,200 I went to some land grants like Michigan State, 279 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,320 and I went to some smaller schools that like, Berea, 280 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,240 College of the Atlantic, just to see what different people were doing. 281 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,880 And, and really thinking about the fact 282 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,160 that we had this opportunity that we had we had a farm space 283 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,960 and we had a kitchen space, and we had this overarching idea. 284 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,560 And so I didn't want to call it food systems because I felt like, 285 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,920 honestly, the place where that bottom drops out 286 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,920 when you do that is around the humanities. 287 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,280 And so to, to like to like try 288 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,480 and almost embrace and own that piece as much as possible. 289 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,800 I felt like the sciences would either fit or not fit. 290 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,960 But to make it, you know, the social sciences is the bridging 291 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,280 sort of framing and conceptual. 292 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,240 But these others, these others as part of it. 293 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:03,000 And I had I had watched, right about the same time I had watched Jeff Sobal 294 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,000 who, passed away recently, but 295 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,000 was the person who brought me into ASFS. 296 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:10,440 And Jeff did a, 297 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,680 he did a Feast and Famine 298 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,680 session at NYU, which was these like they 299 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,280 I think they still hold them, but they would just invite somebody 300 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,640 in to come talk, and everybody would sit around 301 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,640 and have these discussions and Jeff did this. 302 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,720 He did this, blackboard map 303 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,920 of what food studies covered and what it didn't. 304 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,800 And, and really that that was an instructive thing 305 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,800 for me because, 306 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,040 he, he made this point 307 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,160 that certain sciences were just, like, really hard to integrate and like, 308 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,600 like at the point at that point, food science, 309 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,800 you know, some, some types of agricultural science, like they just weren't 310 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,680 quite right in there. Nutrition was, but they weren't quite in there. 311 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,680 And so that was interesting to me. 312 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,560 Although, I do feel like Jeff 313 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,960 also being a sociologist, you know, his biases were that direction. 314 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,040 Right. And so, anyway, 315 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,600 I just drew upon that stuff. 316 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,600 And then there were some preexisting folks at Chatham 317 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:15,800 who had some specialties. 318 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,480 There was a, a really there was an eco-feminist Shakespeare professor. 319 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:21,720 There was, 320 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,920 a theater professor who was actually a beekeeper and was studying agro-ecology. 321 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,040 And so we, we just and a crop scientist who also, like, had 322 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,040 sort of a writing background. 323 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,400 She was sort of a, a Rachel Carson Nancy gift and, 324 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,080 and, and we just we just built it up around that 325 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,080 and around the space that we had, 326 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,400 in fact, 327 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,800 the university, raised like, millions of dollars 328 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,480 to build a sustainability campus around what existed out there. 329 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,240 And while they were building it, we hosted ASFS, 330 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,720 and I think it was I think it was 2015. 331 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,720 I can't actually remember what year it was, 332 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,480 but and so like none of the big building, 333 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,280 the fancy buildings were built yet, it was just like barns and this gorgeous, 334 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:13,560 fieldstone building. 335 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:14,880 That's where our offices are. 336 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,240 And so we hosted it on the main campus and then had the banquet our 337 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,320 at Eaton Hall is the name of it. 338 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,320 And, and to me, that was a great like, 339 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,080 this is how we do it. 340 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,560 These are the people who helped us think about how to do it. 341 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,160 And here, here we are hosting. 342 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,240 So it was a it was a really nice kind of merging moment for us. 343 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,560 Well, I'm glad that you now claim food studies. 344 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,280 Well I keep I keep writing critical articles about it. 345 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,160 John Deutsch and I did a session last year about whether or not there should 346 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,800 be a manifesto or whether it should go away, you know, and 347 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,200 there's no answer. 348 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,280 Well, yeah, I wanted to maybe kind of follow up 349 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,320 or elaborate a little bit on what you mentioned when, 350 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,720 Jeff Sobal is that his name. 351 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,040 When he Jeff Sobal yeah. 352 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:11,320 When he kind of created this mind map about food studies and kind of which 353 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,120 sciences cover aspects of food sciences, of food studies and which don't. 354 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:20,280 And I'm just curious to know, if you think that the way 355 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,240 that he kind of conceptualize this still exists today or, 356 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,040 if there have been some changes or, and also like any of the kinds 357 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,920 of critical, points that you have been raising, 358 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,280 when writing about food studies, particularly like just thinking about 359 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,640 like how like which sciences are seen as, yeah, legitimate 360 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,680 and therefore how do they or don't they fit within the field of food studies? 361 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:44,520 Yeah. 362 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,440 I mean, I think, I think food science is always going to be 363 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,160 the complicated, you know, the complicated relationship. 364 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,360 Right. Because, 365 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:56,920 they are so industry 366 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,960 focused and research focused and, and 367 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,680 and so like finding people who do what I would say, you know, like a critical 368 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,400 food science is a is a it's I don't I don't know anyone who does that. 369 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:10,960 Charlotte Biltekoff 370 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,640 She sits at this really beautiful and difficult intersection 371 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,000 at UC Davis. 372 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,880 Between she has a joint 373 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,880 appointment between food science and American studies 374 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,600 and the food science and her having to learn to walk that 375 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,120 that line between those two spaces and succeed. 376 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:33,120 And what to right and what people value. 377 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,920 You know, 378 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,560 there are a lot of lessons to be learned from her experience that I am. 379 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,960 I have yet I've yet to process, you know, for us, I think, 380 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:48,080 I think that 381 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,080 because so the way that we make it work 382 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,440 in, in our version of food 383 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,440 studies is we embed many things 384 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,040 into an interdisciplinary class 385 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,320 rather than rather than saying, you know, here's, 386 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:06,840 here's a discipline and this is how far you have to get in it to be to be 387 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,400 It's like, it's like, I want the breadth. 388 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:10,640 Right? 389 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,280 Especially especially I think, in, in either program, like 390 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,120 if people want more depth and one of them will find pathways for them. 391 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:21,120 But the breadth is the is the critical. 392 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:23,840 I think I think perspective. 393 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:24,120 Right? 394 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,120 Can you, can you get breadth? So, 395 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,320 a good example of that 396 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,320 would be in the undergraduate program that we have, 397 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,680 we have a food science class, but we did not make them take chemistry. 398 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,160 And now we do like now we have a chemistry class. 399 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,720 And it's the same professor because I think I think it's a it's a 400 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,800 so many of the students are really interested in kind 401 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,800 of what I would call sustainable product development. 402 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:50,280 Right? 403 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,200 And it's similar I think if you look at what Jon Deutsch 404 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,960 and Rachel Schwartz are doing at Drexel in the food lab, like, 405 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,720 that's a perfect another example of it where they are really 406 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,240 they're situated in a department. 407 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,000 I think that is nursing, like the school is nursing. 408 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,600 And so they're working with medical professionals a lot. 409 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,120 And the things that they do in the food lab 410 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,720 and that and the rise of food as medicine and as kind of 411 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,240 a, you know, I think a nascent but also highly funded category. 412 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:19,920 Right? 413 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,240 You can't ignore the fact that that's become a way of thinking. 414 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,720 And so, 415 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,480 I think, I think those are fields 416 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,800 we need to pay very close attention to. 417 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,640 I think on the agricultural side, which is less of what ASFS does 418 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,640 but still of interest and in, I think part of 419 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,640 food studies, 420 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:42,800 agroecology 421 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,080 really helps cover some of the science. 422 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,640 You know, they're getting soil ecology 423 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,200 or soil science, but the fact that there is this, 424 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,240 this kind of more embracing label, 425 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,840 right, allows people to do different kinds of science within there and and, 426 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,720 and frankly, include understanding the social justice 427 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,920 like I'm very appreciative that they also you know, that's what I mean. 428 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,800 Like we just kind of want to embed it in lots of different things. 429 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,960 So I think, I think the 430 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,840 I had this conversation with the folks at University of Vermont that like, 431 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,080 they have this incredible medical school sitting right there, like, 432 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,840 how can you bring these people and their knowledge 433 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,560 and the skills into the into the questions we're asking? 434 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,320 Right? 435 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,200 I don't have a good answer. 436 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,960 I think that was a great answer. 437 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:34,920 Yeah. 438 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,120 I mean, I think it's a question, right? It's like what? 439 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:38,320 You know, what should we do? 440 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,160 Who should we become? Yeah. 441 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,160 And I think I think food is medicine is like, 442 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,160 someone's got to keep an eye on that. You know? 443 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 444 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,880 And I think, you know, it's really important to think 445 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,880 about the aspects that you were just talking about. 446 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,960 And also kind of like some of the critical social questions that you kind of deal 447 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,160 with within your own work, 448 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,160 you know, thinking about the cultural aspects of food. 449 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,160 I think that's, I think that is now seen as something that's 450 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,160 more legitimate, like more legitimate research. 451 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,080 But yeah, I love, like, the breadth of food studies. 452 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,520 And I love the richness of collaborative opportunities 453 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,920 and food studies in that generative knowledge that can be produced. 454 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:22,680 That, that. 455 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,000 Thank you. 456 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,040 And so maybe also just transitioning a little bit about a little bit 457 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,400 more specifically about ASFS, you did mention, 458 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,800 I believe you said Jeff Sobal is the one who kind of. 459 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,520 Yeah. Who brought you 460 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:39,920 Yeah. Please share. 461 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:40,880 So How did you hear about ASFS? 462 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,840 How did he bring you in? 463 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,240 I. I, 464 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,200 I as I kind of alluded to before, I've always had this sort of love 465 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,920 hate relationship with my discipline. 466 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,240 You know, like, I, 467 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,200 I really love how I was trained as a sociologist by the people at Brandeis. 468 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,560 They're critical thinkers. 469 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,920 And, but it's also, you know, it's this nasty big discipline 470 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,840 with, you know, with a lot of, I don't know, and so regardless 471 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,480 So, I took a whole bunch of my grad colleagues and we did a roundtable 472 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,400 at American Sociology Association, which is always in August, always 473 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:21,000 someplace hot, always on my birthday and the year this year, it was 1995. 474 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,120 I was I was like seven months pregnant 475 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,960 and it was in DC, and I was hot and cranky and like, 476 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,920 we did this roundtable and, with people presenting their work. 477 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,440 And the discussant was just 478 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,760 nasty, like she was just, you know, sometimes people are like, 479 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,920 they just want to critique for the sake of critiquing. 480 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,560 And it's not really it's not really beneficial or useful. 481 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,840 And so, you know, I don't know, we got through the we got through the, 482 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,720 the roundtable and this very nice man who was sitting on the outside, 483 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,960 he comes up to me and, you know, this is this is pre pre, you know Instagram. 484 00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:59,240 Right? 485 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,520 So, he hands me a piece of paper and he's like you know, 486 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,520 I'm part of this group of sociologists and nutritionists, 487 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,160 And we have a conference and it's about food. 488 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,000 And I see that that's what you're working on. 489 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,600 And you should come because like these folks like they're really great 490 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,040 and they're generative and they're nice and like, you'll you'll have a great time. 491 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,480 And I was like, okay. 492 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,440 And I stuffed it in my bag and I waddled away, 493 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,680 you know, down the street in DC and went home and had a baby. 494 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,400 And, you know, 495 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,360 all the things that come with that with your brain for, for, for two years. 496 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,160 And, and I 497 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,520 while I was still working on my dissertation, I also was hired, 498 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,440 as a non tenured faculty at Smith. 499 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,680 And so I was just about to start that, that job, 500 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,000 and I was like, oh, God, I got to get back to work on this stuff. 501 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,120 Like, I should present. 502 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:53,120 I should talk about it. And, 503 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,440 and so I found that piece of paper in my backpack and, 504 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,200 and went to the first conference, which was in that I, in 1997. 505 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,400 It was in Madison, Wisconsin, and I had not left the baby before. 506 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,960 And so it was like, you know, I'm traveling, trying to figure out 507 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,960 how not to, like, leak breast milk everywhere 508 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,960 and traveling, like going, like, I don't even know where I'm going. 509 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,680 And then I see, this woman in Birkenstocks getting on a plane, and I'm like, 510 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,040 those are my I bet those are my people. 511 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:31,560 And so sure enough, I got to Madison and didn't know a soul. 512 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,960 And then Jeff Sobal saw me 513 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,120 and swooped me up and introduced me to, 514 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,920 tons of people. 515 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,760 Like, lots and lots of people. 516 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,560 And and I want to talk, if you don't mind. 517 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,120 I want to talk about that conference a little bit, because it was this sort of 518 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,840 strange and eye opening space for me in 1997. Yes, please do. 519 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,640 And yeah, so 520 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,720 I was on I think that the piece of my dissertation 521 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,400 that I was presenting was about men and food and about men who cook 522 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,840 and don't cook and why they do, especially in households, you know, not so much. 523 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,600 And it built off Marjorie DeVault's work, 524 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,160 who was on my dissertation committee. 525 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,440 And anyway, so I'm on this panel, and there was this one man 526 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,160 who, like, discovered feminism and, you know, so it was his talk. 527 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,680 And then I only the other talk wasn't even about gender. 528 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,840 I don't know what it was about, but I'm sitting there, 529 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,520 you know, used to the sociology folks and trying to be formal and presenting. 530 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,000 And there was this woman sitting in the back, and she had on, 531 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,080 like 28 532 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,480 jingly ankle bracelets, and they were just, like, jingling. 533 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:38,840 And she was knitting, I think. 534 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,240 And I was like sitting there going like, oh my God, I'm going to swear. 535 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,760 What the fuck is this? Like, what is this? 536 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,480 And so I get done 537 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,080 and with the and the panels over 538 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,400 and people come up and are talking to me and this, this woman 539 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,520 that I hadn't noticed before, tall women with like the thickest Queens accent. 540 00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,840 Her name is Jackie Newman. 541 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,520 And she was one of the founders of ASFS. 542 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,760 She comes up to me and she hands me a pamphlet. 543 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:04,560 She goes, well, 544 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,040 I don't agree with anything you said, but you should join our association. 545 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,840 And she started critiquing me, and the woman with the ankle bracelets 546 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,880 comes up and like, almost like kind of kind of shoos her off, 547 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,800 like, do you know what I mean? She's like, oh no, this is great. 548 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,000 You know, like basically. 549 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,920 And it was this woman named Netta Davis who has been, 550 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,120 a really wonderful friend and colleague and, 551 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,920 you know, also had had a baby, not like a couple of months before mine. 552 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,120 And so we got to sit and commiserate about, like, what it means to leave your, 553 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,560 you know, little one when you're still nursing and, 554 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,880 and, and that to me really epitomize like what it was like to be there. 555 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,480 And they were two keynote speakers. 556 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,480 And this woman, Jackie Newman, got up 557 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,400 and she presented what I could only at the time thought it was like 558 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,440 her slideshow about her trip to China and about Chinese food. 559 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:03,160 And at first I was like, what is like I was I just had no context for it. 560 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:03,760 Do you know what I mean? 561 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,720 Like, I had no context for like like 562 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:09,200 what we now take 563 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,840 so seriously as culture, like the things that Jackie documented. 564 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,680 Her collection of books and materials is at SUNY Stony Brook. 565 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,720 It's an unbelievable collection, materials that she collected 566 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,360 as a nutritionist and dietitian in New York. 567 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,520 At the time, I'm just like, oh, God, this this woman is just talking about, 568 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,880 like, noodles, you know, like, I didn't, you know what I mean? 569 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,120 Like, I couldn't I had no context for it. 570 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:33,960 Right. 571 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,320 And then for Ag Food and Human Values, Harriet Friedmann, 572 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,560 World Systems goddess, 573 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,880 who I didn't know really at the time. 574 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,240 And I don't know if you know, but, you know, Harriet is about 575 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,000 five feet tall, and so she gets up and she does this talk. 576 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,800 And the name of the talk is vegetable consciousness. 577 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,360 And so I'm thinking it's going to be world systems theory. 578 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,320 And she gets up and start talking about I don't even remember what it was about, 579 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,080 but I was like it was very philosophical and, and 580 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,520 I don't know, 581 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,640 at that point in my career, like, it was kind of hard to blow my mind, 582 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,680 but this place was like, what are these people like? 583 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,320 And and they were all of these senior scholars, 584 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,000 you know, Warren Belasco, Carole Counihan, Jan Poppendieck 585 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,280 And like, 586 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,760 I'm missing some people, but they just I don't know how to say this, 587 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,440 but they, like they were kind and they welcomed 588 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,120 graduate students into their world in their fold with no judgment 589 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,960 and only enthusiasm and only like, oh my gosh, you're working on this. 590 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,600 You should read this and this would be cool. 591 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,200 And let me introduce you to this person. Like it 592 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,080 the hierarchical distinctions and all that kind of competition 593 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,000 that is built into many, many academic lives was just not there. 594 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,520 In fact, I went to 595 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,000 an author meets critics 596 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,480 session for a book that Alex MacIntosh had just come out, 597 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,840 and I had just reviewed this book myself for a journal, 598 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,480 and I was a little savage, because that is who we were taught to be. 599 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,880 Right? And, 600 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,680 and this panel was like much more like, 601 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,720 oh, Alex, you wrote this book and it's so cool. 602 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:18,520 And it does this. 603 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,520 And and I was just like, who are these people? 604 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,640 And I really loved it, 605 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,640 but I went back to Amherst 606 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,320 and I taught and I ran to Arlene, and I was like, these people are so weird, 607 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,560 and they're so interesting and like, you know, and and, 608 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,040 and you have to come with me 609 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,040 next time because 610 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,000 there's not a like, my panel was the only panel on 611 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,520 gender, like, how are we talking about food and not talking about gender? 612 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,080 And there was nothing zero zippo explicitly about race. 613 00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,400 You know, there was Stephen. 614 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,800 And the way in which people were talking about what I would call socioeconomic, 615 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,520 you know, class, right, was really through the lens of hunger, anti-hunger, 616 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,520 food access, food sovereignty, you know, kind of Jan Jan's work. 617 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,560 And I was like, you know, I just think there's a lot more here, 618 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:18,880 but I don't know, like, come with me. 619 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,120 And so Arlene came with me the next year to San Francisco and, 620 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,120 and there we met some people who were not 621 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,080 I don't know, it goes on like, it just it keeps unfolding. 622 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,040 But that was my that's been my thematic issue since 1998. 623 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:35,360 Right. 624 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,120 Like, okay, 625 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,200 how are we talking about these things that are really, really central to me, 626 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,360 and to me seem absolute 627 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,360 sort of 628 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,200 you just can't talk about food without them, right? 629 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,560 You can't. It's culture. 630 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,520 But it's like it's these categories that we make. 631 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,440 And so, 632 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,160 it's always been the noise that I want to make 633 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,160 when I'm, when I go to a conference, you know. 634 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,800 Well, thank you for sharing. 635 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,800 That vignette or that anecdote or that story. 636 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,120 I, I love how you mentioned that, you know, arriving to ASFS 637 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:18,000 for the very first time, you saw that scholars and senior scholars can be just 638 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,000 kind and generous, and supportive and like, that kind of community 639 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,600 is not really the way that we are 640 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,080 kind of trained into academia. 641 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,920 You know, like you mentioned, where we are trained to like, perform a level of like 642 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,320 ego, like criticism driven by ego in order to show how brilliant we are. 643 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,720 But the fact that you have brilliant people, just, 644 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,200 speaking with generosity and 645 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,880 also raising critiques, but doing it in a way that's good faithed. 646 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,400 And I think that's like, that's such a valuable, 647 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,680 communal unity and space to have and to be a part of. 648 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,280 And so it's great that that was kind of like your first introduction to ASFS. 649 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,360 Yes. And I feel like that's what I've also experienced. 650 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,320 I'm, I'm pretty new to ASFS, but that's what I've experienced as well. 651 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,600 I'm really glad to hear that actually. 652 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:17,080 You know, I mean, I know it's not I, I think that I think that it struggles. 653 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,520 You know, I think the organization really, really struggles to, 654 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,800 to remake itself in a way, you know, 655 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,880 that that understands especially, 656 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,160 I think, contemporary scholars and contemporary scholarship and, 657 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,160 you know, 658 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,160 Psyche 659 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,280 Forson-Williams is a really good friend of mine. 660 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,640 In fact, I met her at the conference in San Francisco. 661 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,040 I'm pretty sure that next year and, you know, and we have always sort of stood 662 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,040 on this kind of place of going oh how, 663 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,400 how, how to get how to remake it. 664 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,320 And to me, to me, it's very much about the newer and the younger scholars 665 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,080 like yourself who, you know that if you make that space, 666 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:03,640 then then you remake the 667 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,320 the field or you open the field up right. 668 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,320 And I think it goes back to what I was saying before about breadth 669 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,840 Like, you know, there's plenty of spaces to get depth, there's plenty of spaces. 670 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,200 But to be able to talk to someone 671 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,040 from a completely different field who looks at, 672 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,160 I mean, my my favorite example of that is, is Meredith Abarca. 673 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,520 You know, Meredith is I mean, is is a 674 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,960 is a lit as a, you know, comparative lit scholar, right? 675 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,000 Came to a session that we did one year that was about oral 676 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,520 history, that we were using oral histories of food and food voice 677 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,160 and, and, and at that time, she was making these disclaimers. 678 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,120 You know, I'm not a social scientist, so I'm like, 679 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,680 you are more of a methodologist like than anyone I have ever met. 680 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,080 And you have a method that is like one of the few 681 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,280 that's really specific to food studies. 682 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,720 Like it's really hard, you know what I'm saying? 683 00:37:56,720 --> 00:38:00,120 It's hard to say that a field has a has specific methods. 684 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,640 But like if you look at charlas culinarias and you look at the way she gets people 685 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,640 to talk and talk in the food voice 686 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,600 videos, it's it's a method that is unique. 687 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:12,720 Right? It's and 688 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,520 and hers and put her in a place 689 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,560 and in a space with social scientists 690 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,960 but not asserting dominance, as you said. 691 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:23,280 Right? 692 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,440 In terms of that is has been is a really, really important space. 693 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,400 You know, like even if we can't say that, you know, ASFS 694 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:37,320 covers, covers, everything, it should or as well as welcoming as it should be, 695 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,680 there is a space in there for for people to learn and develop 696 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,960 and share across those kinds of fields. 697 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,400 And that's been really crucial, I have to say that 698 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,800 so, too early 699 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,440 on when I was, I was teaching at Smith, but I was still a grad student. 700 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,560 Those those lovely, those lovely senior scholars 701 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,240 suck me into being on the board and they and 702 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,360 and so I was President of ASFS when I was still a grad student. 703 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:08,760 Yeah. 704 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,240 Which is not not not something I would recommend, but, 705 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:19,920 but it's a similar thing with, I think, Ag Food and Human Values. 706 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,880 The idea that, like, what they do is quote unquote different. 707 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,640 Like one of the things we really try to do at that point was to say, 708 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,720 let's try not to make panels that are, oh, that one's an Ag Food and Human Values 709 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:35,920 and that one's an ASFS, you know, like, like because these topics, 710 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,760 they should be speaking to one another and sometimes you couldn't do it, trust me. 711 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,680 Like sometimes it's like this is a panel on aquaculture 712 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,680 and that is all it's going to be, you know, or this is a panel on, 713 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,560 you know, very specific cultural practices. 714 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,560 And that's all it's going to be. 715 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,760 But but more and more today, I see it's harder 716 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,160 to look at the program and say, that's the case. 717 00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:58,000 You know. 718 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,200 So and so kind of building off what you just mentioned, 719 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,480 but also your earlier point about when you first went to 720 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,480 the ASFS conference in 1998 or 97. 721 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,760 97. Yeah. 722 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:11,960 You mentioned that your panel 723 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,960 was the only one on gender and there was no panel on race. 724 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:20,880 Since then, like, how have you seen ASFS become more diverse? 725 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,360 Like think more critically, about these issues, 726 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:26,480 be more inclusive. 727 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:27,840 Like, would you speak a little bit 728 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,840 about just kind of your experience since 97 to now? 729 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,640 Yeah. I mean, 730 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,280 I think, I think, 731 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,840 I think for me it's about having, you know, bringing people in that 732 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,840 there were people that for, you know, in my own experience, in my own knowledge, 733 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,360 I wanted to do panels with I wanted to do papers with, 734 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:53,040 I wanted to encourage them to come and, and so at that point in my career, 735 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,360 that's very much, you know, I mean, what what we focused on, 736 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,680 organizationally, 737 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,960 I think it was always really hard because it was like the, 738 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,480 you know, organizations and institutions have their own culture 739 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,840 and their own rules, even if you move new people in and out and, 740 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,360 because it's so much run by volunteer, 741 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,320 you know, because, 742 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,680 you know, we relied so heavily on volunteer unpaid labor 743 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,680 from NYU for so long, 744 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,800 that, it was hard to disrupt. 745 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:31,680 Right? 746 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,680 That hard to get hard to change it. And, 747 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:38,880 And I 748 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,960 so I, I don't know that I can speak to the organization itself. 749 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:43,680 Do you know what I mean? 750 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:48,200 Like, I don't I don't I really don't participate as much anymore. 751 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,200 I'm not a fellow anymore on the, on the, 752 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,360 I sort of at one point I was like, I teach at a difficult institution. 753 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:54,920 I don't want to 754 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,240 I don't want to be on difficult boards, you know? So. 755 00:41:57,240 --> 00:42:00,240 So, I backed away and they're not that difficult. But, 756 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,720 but the way in which I feel like the openings happen 757 00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:08,320 are, in fact, with these phenomenal younger scholars, 758 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,880 you know, so, so my, 759 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,520 I don't know that the thing that really opened my heart 760 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,760 the most in terms of ASFS was we were in Syracuse 761 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,760 last year and Ashanté, 762 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,640 I think Hannah I think Hanna Garth was I don't know if Hanna was there. 763 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,320 I think Hanna was there, but like, like brought together 764 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,960 just these groups of young black scholars in particular. 765 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,120 And, and and, you know, they weren't they weren't like, engaged 766 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,040 in, like, how can we make ASFS better? 767 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,760 They were engaged in, like, how can we help you? 768 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,640 How can we move your scholarship forward? 769 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,160 Who should you meet? Who should you talk to? 770 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:50,640 And, and 771 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,480 that piece like that mentorship component, I think that that fostering component, 772 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,880 that valuation of like putting your work forward in that space, 773 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,040 it is the thing that ASFS allows to have happen 774 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,520 and that is the best thing that it it's done. 775 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,520 I mean, that was a that was quite a moment. 776 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,760 And I know, you know, it weighs heavy on the backs 777 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,800 of these younger scholars bringing people up. 778 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,280 But they they are amazing. 779 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,280 Like they're just amazing. 780 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,840 I also think 781 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,920 it's, it's good that ASFS is not the only game in town anymore. 782 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:30,560 You know that. 783 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,680 In fact, you can go to different conferences 784 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,080 and present on food and have it be centered this year. 785 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,400 Again, I've talked about my my 786 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,760 like disinterest in sociology and ASA, well, they got in touch with me this year. 787 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,800 I'm like, hey, could you be the organizer of the, 788 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,120 the food section for the sociology Association? 789 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,520 I was like, okay, sure. 790 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,440 You know, like whatever. 791 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:55,200 And I did it. 792 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,440 And I like the papers were cool, like, they were not, you know, 793 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,040 they were really interesting. 794 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,640 I was afraid it was just going to be something really, 795 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,240 you know, straight, narrow. It was not. So, 796 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:10,440 so I, 797 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,520 I see I see that as an indirect legacy of ASFS, right? 798 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,080 That, like, maybe they, they can't be everything to everybody. 799 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:19,800 Maybe 800 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,600 maybe they still are a bit of a little bit of a club, you know, like 801 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,880 I go now to hear work, 802 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,880 but I go because there are people I will not see otherwise. 803 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,800 Right? 804 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,800 But, but the, the sort of like, 805 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,840 I don't know, I think of it as fungal, you know. 806 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:38,400 Right. 807 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,640 Like, it's like it's like it's almost like it goes out to another 808 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,840 to another, another branch or another. Node. 809 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:47,920 To another, you know, organization. 810 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,160 I went to American Studies for the first time 811 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,920 in a million years this year, and I was just like, whoa, like, look at all 812 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,000 that's going on and look at all this beautiful stuff about food. 813 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:01,560 So you know what I mean? 814 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,120 Like, it's it's like, I don't think that would have happened without ASFS. 815 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:07,760 Yeah. 816 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,760 And I think it's great how you mentioned that you went to, 817 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,440 the conference last year at Syracuse and that, you know, Ashanté Reese among others, 818 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,000 you know, organized these spaces and panels and roundtables 819 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,760 to foster mentorship and offer support and create community. 820 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,560 And, you know, I see that through line from the first time that you were at ASFS. 821 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,040 And so it is really great to hear that 822 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,600 because I think that, you know, in these spaces, 823 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,200 we want to present our work, we want to receive, you know, 824 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,480 genuine, 825 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:44,640 critical feedback. 826 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,960 But we also want to create these really lasting and nourishing relationships 827 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:49,800 with one another. 828 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,960 And that support system is just so fundamental. 829 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,400 And so it's great to hear that through line from the first time 830 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,440 until the most recent time that you've been to ASFS. 831 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:01,840 And like 832 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,840 you said, I think also like food now is becoming 833 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,000 this much more kind of legitimate right site of inquiry. 834 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:13,000 And so you do have food caucuses now and all sorts of conferences. 835 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,880 And I'm sure ASFS has had something to do 836 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,880 with the development of this beyond ASFS. 837 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:21,400 And you know, it's funny. 838 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:21,600 Yeah. 839 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,160 Jon, Jon Deutsch and I were arguing about this 840 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,640 a little bit recently because he calls it mission creep. 841 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,400 He's like, there's a little bit of mission creep. 842 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:29,880 Like anything fits now. 843 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,920 And I'm like, well, that's not true. 844 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,840 Like, you can still have critical perspect 845 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,360 like you can, you know, like we can work on boundaries. 846 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,360 And I think we were starting to work on them a little bit, 847 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:40,840 at the end of Syracuse. 848 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,000 Like we got a bunch of feedback. 849 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,680 Neither of us, of course, have had time to to follow up on it or think about it. 850 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,760 And and I am I am also a much more like I want to look at it in context. 851 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:51,920 I can't 852 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,160 I can't speak broadly about it, but like I can point to different programs 853 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,960 and say, oh, you could do that more, or you could do that, you know, or 854 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,160 like, this works. But 855 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:02,400 but I agree with you. 856 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,400 It's, it's that. 857 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,480 In an anti-intellectual world, 858 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,040 you know, we still need spaces to feel legitimate. 859 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,560 We still need spaces to feel connected. 860 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,560 Right. And, 861 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,600 and and recognizing, you know, like, like family. 862 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,960 It's never perfect, but, you know, but you bring, you know, but the openness 863 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,120 to bringing something and commitment to bringing people forward is incredible. 864 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,760 You know, 865 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,480 I and to me, what's interesting 866 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,520 to me, too, just from a feminist standpoint, 867 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,720 you know, I, I came out of sort of environments 868 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,720 where, 869 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,120 Where it was hard 870 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,440 it was hard for feminist scholars to be good mentors sometimes. 871 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,600 Right? Especially white feminists. 872 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,480 Because because they were, you know, they were, in a sense, 873 00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,760 fighting for their own space a lot of the time. 874 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,040 But they weren't terrible. 875 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:06,600 But but when I looked at sort of the ways in which some of those people 876 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,560 at ASFS, mostly men, 877 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,840 really, really 878 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,360 spoke for our careers and really, you know, fostered us. 879 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,800 You know, Warren and, 880 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,800 Jeff Sobel and Alex, I mean, they, 881 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,360 they were just extraordinarily 882 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,360 supportive and kind and, 883 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,240 and to me, that was a big thing, you know, a big thing to see. 884 00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:36,120 Like, you know, I remember we, 885 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,480 we'll see if this is appropriate. 886 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,720 But, you know, there was just there was just a point in time 887 00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:44,600 where someone on the board who was a man who had been on for a long time, 888 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,640 you know, we could just tell that he was harassing young women. 889 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:48,320 students. 890 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,840 And and we have a bunch of us confronted him about it. 891 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,440 We were in Chicago, such a great conference. 892 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:55,680 But we were like this terrible. 893 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,880 We sat we're sitting around at the Russian Tea Room going, 894 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,280 all these feminist women's scholars, this is bad. 895 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,560 We can't let this keep happening. What do we do? 896 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,600 None of us have that much power. 897 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,040 And we went back to these, you know, to I remember 898 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,760 to Jeff and Alex, and they were like, well that's unacceptable. 899 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:14,040 Like, you know what I mean? 900 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,040 Like, we all need to speak up and and to have them just, 901 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,080 just do that to really like, like speak up. 902 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:25,000 But that when there were no processes in place, no, you know, no formal mechanisms. 903 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,440 And this person was their friend, you know, so like to be able to do that. 904 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:31,320 To me, 905 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,160 those are the hidden pieces that are really powerful, 906 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,840 you know, that like, like that story of how people, how people support 907 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,200 one another even when they're not the one you expect to do it. So. 908 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,600 Yeah, I think that's important. 909 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,680 And even more so when you mentioned the fact that there were no kind 910 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,680 of mechanisms or protocols in place, you know, it's just. 911 00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:54,000 Just. 912 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,600 Plain ethics and morale, you know, integrity. 913 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:58,920 Right. 914 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,480 And I think now there, there is there are many more conversations happening. 915 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,400 You know, there's a lot more in place to be able to really address this. 916 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,640 But it's also really great to hear that that was actually kind of a precursor 917 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,120 that was, happening within the space within food studies. 918 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:15,800 Yeah. 919 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,880 I think just to also, you know, you know, in any circumstance 920 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,440 when you recognize that, like 921 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,440 institutions don't always support you, right? 922 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,160 They're not they're not, they're not always there for your for your benefit. 923 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:31,120 Right. 924 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,640 They're there for their own self-preservation in some ways. 925 00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:39,480 And so, I mean, anyone in academia right now feels that way but like but 926 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,960 but to to have these, 927 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,520 you know, kind of people who make up that organization who help fund it like 928 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,520 sort of recognize just just out and out, recognize 929 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,520 that that, that, that, that needed not to happen. 930 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,520 Was really, really, I don't know, kept me going, 931 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,680 you know, like, I have this thing where, I mean, I have gone 932 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,400 to ASFS 27 years in a row, like I have attended every year. 933 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,000 You know, other than those Covid years and every year I'm like, I'm not going 934 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,400 next year I'm not going like, I'm not. 935 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,080 I'm not doing that. I'm tired. 936 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,440 I got something else to do. 937 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,440 Charlotte won't be there. 938 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,720 You know, whatever the reason. Right? 939 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:26,040 And yet somehow I show up every time, you know, I and I think it's stuff like that. 940 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,920 It's knowing that, you know, I'm going to see someone that, 941 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,920 that means a lot or that I want to support. 942 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:35,280 Right. 943 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:36,480 Like, certainly for me, the last 944 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,480 15 years have been bringing my students and supporting them, 945 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,160 you know, and making sure they have a great experience in the same way. 946 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:50,200 So and so I know where I should probably start wrapping up. 947 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,960 I, I mean, I mean, I'm fine. 948 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,600 I have like 15 more minutes. 949 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,840 It's up to you, you know, like what you if you feel like there's stuff 950 00:51:58,120 --> 00:51:59,360 that you really want to cover that 951 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,360 we haven't covered, I mean, I'm happy to do that. 952 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,600 And, you know, and also, I love having the conversation. 953 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,080 Like, I love to talk about this more at some point. 954 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:10,440 Yeah. 955 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,440 No, this has been so fun. 956 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,720 I just because of what you mentioned, you know, 957 00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:22,240 you've been going to ASFS for the, for the past 27 years. 958 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,640 You know, what are your hopes for ASFS now that it has existed for 40 years? 959 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,400 You know, what's your hope for the next 40 years? 960 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:30,960 Yeah. 961 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:36,720 I, I really, 962 00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:40,920 I really think a lot about the viability of the two little organizations. 963 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,960 You know, I think about the two of them together a lot because, 964 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:47,840 you know, 965 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,840 they can each manage on their own, but it's silly not not, 966 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,840 you know, it's like a it's a marriage of convenience, but, 967 00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:01,320 I so, so I always hope that they will integrate 968 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,440 more even if they have more culture, you know, different cultures. 969 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,040 I just feel like, I hope I hope they can continue to find a pathway, 970 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,880 forward in the future. 971 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,880 And I also hope 972 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,040 that ASFS can, can really, in fact, 973 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,800 connect back to these other, you know, to other fields 974 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,800 that, you know, like, have a relevance in relation 975 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,720 to these other fields, to really break some boundaries. 976 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:32,120 I don't know. 977 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,160 I, you know, I, I have spent my career 978 00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,040 building things that look like other stuff, but aren't 979 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,040 you know, I built a program that doesn't look like other programs. 980 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,920 I built a center that's not a nonprofit, but, you know, 981 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,400 it's more of a collective in a housed in a university. 982 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:53,160 I so I'm really I really want them to, 983 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,120 Oh, evolve is a word right. 984 00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:00,960 Like, in those other 985 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,960 relationships, you know, 986 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,480 I don't know, I to be to be really blunt, I, 987 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,800 like I said, I, I went to American Studies after many, 988 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,600 many years of a hiatus, and it was such a different organization. 989 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,160 And it was so different in terms of the scholarship. 990 00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,600 And I loved it. It was, to be really blunt. 991 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,320 It was about as black and brown as you could get, and it was critical, 992 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,880 and it was just like, I really loved seeing that 993 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,640 and I feel like ASFS has that potential. 994 00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:35,280 You know, it has that potential. 995 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,760 And and I so I kind of hope that's where they go. 996 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:42,200 Right? 997 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,400 Like whether it's connecting up with these other conferences 998 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,040 and organizations one year, a couple actually a couple of times 999 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,600 I went to the Canadian version of ASFS that I was just a keynote speaker. 1000 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:54,520 I'm like, you know, 1001 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,680 they do all their conferences in this big lump of the humanities all at once, 1002 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,480 and it was a little intimidating for about five minutes. 1003 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,000 And then I was like, oh, this is kind of cool 1004 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,800 because I could go over here to like this. 1005 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,800 You know, I can go over to indigenous person Asian studies and, 1006 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:09,200 and listen to a session. 1007 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:13,080 Or I could go over here and, and, and I just wish that those kinds of, 1008 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,560 you know, kind of integration and like, could continue to happen. 1009 00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:19,440 And like I said, I 1010 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,440 also hope that it continues to be a good space 1011 00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:27,600 for new and young scholars like that, that that it could be that in the future. 1012 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,600 Those are my those are my real 1013 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,960 that should I like I said, I was very heartened in Syracuse. 1014 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,160 But I also know how much work that took. 1015 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,440 And, you know, fingers crossed maybe that can keep going. 1016 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:43,480 And what about food studies? 1017 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,480 What are kind of some of your hopes for the 1018 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,160 huge field of food studies? 1019 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,360 I mean, 1020 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,800 I, I have a piece where I talk about 1021 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:59,800 hegemony in food studies and, and that one that to me lays out my dreams. 1022 00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,320 You know, like that one lays out what I hope and it's an ongoing thought. But, 1023 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:10,480 I think, 1024 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,840 I think that, like I said, what what I, 1025 00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,240 what I hope happens with food studies 1026 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:20,240 is that these fields that are 1027 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,920 that need us, that need a critical perspective 1028 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,920 on culture and food and, 1029 00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:28,920 and the way we produce food. 1030 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:30,400 Right. 1031 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:31,920 Really through that, 1032 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,840 I, I'll use my home language of sustainability, right, like that, 1033 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,840 that they can see how valuable and useful having 1034 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,840 that perspective is. So, 1035 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,560 you know, I have I have been training master's students 1036 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,840 for 15 years specifically. 1037 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:49,400 I mean, I work with undergraduates, 1038 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,040 but when I watch them go out, like I, I deliberately 1039 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,400 wanted to be able to work with people who would be practitioners, you know? 1040 00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,600 And so I look at the really complicated universe 1041 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,000 that they're inheriting right at the moment. 1042 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,040 And, and I just want them to have like the skills and food studies, 1043 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,960 I think the way we do it are the ones that you need to navigate 1044 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:16,120 what's going on, whether it's as an academic or as a practitioner or both. 1045 00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,280 Right. To me, like so. So that's 1046 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:22,920 and the question is, are we like the question 1047 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,840 I'm always asking is, is this the right bucket of skills still? 1048 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:27,840 You know what I mean? 1049 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,160 And sometimes that's a really pragmatic question. 1050 00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,360 Sometimes I'm like, I think you all need to learn GIS. 1051 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,400 You know, like I think you need like it's like a really silly, 1052 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,920 pragmatic question like that. 1053 00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,800 And sometimes it's like, 1054 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,040 I read this book about Ice and Indigeneity and Hawaiʻi 1055 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,920 by Hi'ilei Hobart, and it changed the way I think about everything. 1056 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,600 And you all should read this book, you know, because what it teaches you 1057 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:57,560 is colonialism exists in specific contexts. 1058 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,600 And, and, you know, and so do you know what I mean? 1059 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,840 So, like, I, I feel like there's just a toolkit out 1060 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,160 there, both on the practical and the and the 1061 00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:09,240 thought 1062 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,960 provoking piece that food studies can continue to provide. 1063 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,360 Warren Belasco I saw this little quote on the, 1064 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,400 one of the questions on the list that said, you know, 1065 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,680 Warren said that food studies needs to be you need to be a generalist. 1066 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:24,480 And I said, yeah. 1067 00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,480 Warren also said that we need to be subversive. 1068 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,040 And, and, and I, and I embrace that. 1069 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,600 Like, I really embrace that, like, you need to 1070 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,880 you need to keep subverting what we think of as normative. 1071 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,640 You know, what is normative for someone to eat? 1072 00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,640 What is normative nutrition for a particular person, 1073 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,160 what is normative around the right to food? 1074 00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,200 You know, so so we have we have like this power 1075 00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,200 that that I kind of hope, 1076 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,400 you know, that that this bucket 1077 00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,000 like this bucket can called food studies can keep utilizing, 1078 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,200 you know, and if it doesn't get useful, then we'll move on. 1079 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,200 But it seems like it's still pretty useful. 1080 00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,200 Everybody still needs to sustain themselves. 1081 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:15,480 So I think that was such a beautiful, like way to kind of wrap up, 1082 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,200 like everything that you were saying throughout the whole interview, 1083 00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,000 just like we need to also be subversive 1084 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,000 and we need to commit to this. 1085 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:27,120 Yeah. 1086 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,120 Just to subverting what we think is normative 1087 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:35,960 and how food studies does give us it gives us so many skills, so many different 1088 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:41,640 entry points, language, but also just like embodied ways of kind of dealing with 1089 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:42,280 all of this. Absolutely 1090 00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:43,880 Like, yeah, I think we 1091 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,640 could have a whole other hour about the immaterial embodied component. 1092 00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,680 Like, I, my heart. 1093 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,200 Yeah. So much with that as well. 1094 00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,120 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1095 00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,080 I think I'm so glad that you said that. 1096 00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:57,920 Yeah, that's why. 1097 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,400 I didn't ask the question, but I'm glad that you read it. 1098 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,920 And then you you added the part about the 1099 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,240 It was one of the ones I was like, oh, I think I used to have it as a quote 1100 01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,440 at the bottom of my signature that is his comment about subversiveness and 1101 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,440 and in truth, like to me, Warren was the 1102 01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,920 you know, Warren helped set the tone for what this should be. 1103 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,640 And and so I'm always I'm always thinking about that 1104 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,640 and the other so, you know, for me, Arlene, who is just like 1105 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,400 challenge what we think of us as normal 1106 01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,400 and recognize that the binaries are part of the problem. 1107 01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,040 So, yeah. 1108 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:40,000 Well, I really thank you for being such a nice guide through this. 1109 01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,680 No. It was my pleasure. 1110 01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:44,200 It's completely my pleasure. 1111 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:48,840 Is there anything that you just want to kind of say that maybe we didn't touch on, 1112 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:51,800 that maybe we should have talked about? 1113 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:52,800 No, the only. 1114 01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:54,800 Thing I was, I was going to, I was going to say is, 1115 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:58,640 you know, I actually I don't do them as much anymore. 1116 01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,680 But like, I have always really, really appreciated 1117 01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:07,240 the fact that there's a day at the beginning of the conference dedicated 1118 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:11,400 to, you know, being in the field, seeing what's in the system. 1119 01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,440 And, and I, I hope that that that continues, 1120 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,360 you know, because because the place where you're doing this matters. 1121 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,640 You know, if we come someplace, it's really useful and important. And 1122 01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,240 I don't know, I've had some of the best times I've ever had on 1123 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,600 some of those field trips, you know, out in a field with some cows, 1124 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,120 you know, then standing there 1125 01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:38,200 asking that, you know, do you give like the cows by bovine 1126 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,720 growth hormone or don't you know, all the fun, all the good times? 1127 01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,400 So, anyway, but thank you so much. 1128 01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:46,280 Yeah. 1129 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,520 No, I and I agree, I think it's important for us, 1130 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,280 when we're in these conferences to remember that 1131 01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,320 the conference is a bubble and we can't completely, 1132 01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,120 you know, be ignorant of the fact that we're in a bubble. 1133 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:02,600 We need to also kind of situate ourselves within the local context and life. 1134 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:05,480 So, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. 1135 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,480 And thank you so much for for talking to me. 1136 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,880 I had such a blast, and it was so nice to meet you. 1137 01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:13,800 Will you be in Oregon? 1138 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:15,040 I will, will you? 1139 01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:16,560 And so we can talk in person? 1140 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:17,880 Yes, I was, yeah, 1141 01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,040 just talk about all the things on the side of this that we didn't get to talk about. 1142 01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,640 Yes, I can't wait, I can't. Wait. 1143 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,800 Well thank you. Yeah. 1144 01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:29,960 And on behalf of the ASFS 40 Committee and ASFS, 1145 01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,960 I just want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. 1146 01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:34,320 It was truly a pleasure. 1147 01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,320 Same and thank you for doing this. 1148 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:38,840 All right.